Just want to know some people's opinions of the value of fantasy land playing in pineapple.

Some points of note
- it's harder to stay in FL while you're in FL than if you were playing a normal hand
- FL worth less in a 3 handed game vs a heads up game as there is more information available


I've heard values range from 6-15.

The main question I have is this which seems simple of the surface but is probably more complicated than I initially thought:

Against worse players do you gamble less or more for FL?

Arguments for gambling less
- your skill edge in a normal hand is negated when you're in FL. eg: if your edge is 0.5 points/game (hypothetical), then you lose this edge when you go to FL

Arguments for gambling more
- because opponents play poorly, your FL is worth more than if you were against a competent player
- poorer players would play even worse against a FL hand than a normal hand

Another question would be would you even adjust at all whether to gamble less or more for FL depending on the skill level of your opponent or would you just play the same regardless?

So, most players are worse because they gamble too much themselves, meaning the value of not fouling goes up a bit, which should lower your propensity to gamble for FL. If you are playing someone who you thinks misses good gambles a lot, you may also want to gamble for FL less. Basically anything that someone does that is sub-optimal should have you adjusting by not fouling more, because they are weakening their average range and you can just win by taking slightly more safe lines in close spots, with a higher frequently.

Of course its all subjective, because every situation is unique. Here is a HH I might be putting into my next article:

Player 1 Draw: K♠Q♠5♣
Front K♣Q♦
Mid 4♣5♦5♠9♦
Back A♥8♥2♥
Player 2

Front K♦4♦
Mid 6♣8♣7♥6♠2♠
Back 3♣3♦J♠J♦


My simulator has K Front 5 Middle at -.867 (FL valued at 7) and the play it safe board K Middle 5 Front at -4.781. In the moment, you might think the values are closer and play it safe, since you need to hit a running flush to avoid a foul, but there is no way you are making up 4 points by playing it safe.

I would argue that you are more likely to make a mistake trying to "adjust" to a bad player than the value you capture when you do take a line that fouls less. Its a tricky situation to calculate but I would need the two decisions to be around .2 points in difference before even thinking about playing it safe vs anyone. Since that is going to happen only every few thousand hands, and I probably won't be able to figure out they are that close on the fly, the concept of adjusting to your opponent seems to be a bit overrated itself. Just play good poker and let them make mistakes.

How do you deal fantasy land in pineapple?
Do you deal all 13 at once? Do you deal 5 then 5 then the rest?

Deal the normal way for first five cards, alternately, 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1. Then deal out the rest of FL cards to FL player. If both in it, all FL to 1st player then all FL to 2nd player.

Fantasyland in Pineapple is minimum 14 cards. 13 is practically a disadvantage.

Against an inexperienced or bad player definitely gamble more. Why? Because they are scoring fewer points all around, meaning you are punished less when you miss & rewarded more when you hit.

1) They are more likely to foul in any given pre-FL HU hand, allowing a broader cushion for risk

2) They often miss value like trips middle or non-FL royalties in front (e.g. JJ)

3) When you are in FL they also foul more often, boosting PPH

Against a better player, you can't really be conservative in Pineapple; the only argument for that is when you're sure villain is fouling; even then I might be gambling to exploit their low odds. Generally I wouldn't be worrying about hands that score in the -8 to +8 range; I'd basically be trying to tread water and wait for that one big sequence when you run good, hit a big FL/repeat and they foul, and of course trying to avoid the reverse scenario.

Against a good player I'd value FL between 6-7 points (I ran 400 hand trials to get this number). I don't have a good estimate against a bad player, but I think 10 might be safe.

Regarding 3-handed play, I'd just not do it if both opponents are good. Right now IMO 14-card Fantasyland isn't strong enough against two good players. Against 1 good and 1 bad opponent, I think you can break even fairly often and occasionally hit big, and against 2 bad opponents I'd play all day (and night) long. If you can rely on one or more fouls frequently then FL obviously accrues more points.

I actually wrote an article 6 months ago on the difficulties of beating rake and good opponents in Pineapple - for Two Plus Two. My suggestion to help the game was variable-value Fantasyland, where you get either 13, 14 or 15 cards based on the quality of your FL go, IOW QQ or KK or AA.

Here's the link

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/i...pple-poker.php