I don't know this game and I don't want to appear stupid, but I'm interested in learning so I'll take a shot.

4567? (I'd be drawing for a deuce UTG but with a raise would figure the chances of catching a deuce were reduced, and I'd only have number four even if I caught a deuce).

That's my attempt. I'm interested in the answer.

Buzz

Yes and yes against most players.

There are some many hands that are playable in SB if its folded to you or if BTN opened that I wouldnt play UTG, all hands like 3457, 863, 872, if its folded to me in SB I would open 23 24 25 27.

Really, you play these in SB vs. BTN opener? I just muck all of these. I do open 863 and 872 if it's folded to me, but not 2wxxx. So I have to backpedal and say I do play slightly looser in SB vs. UTG, but not by much.

I suppose I don't see people underdefend their BB, really. And if people are calling with lots of 2-card draws, I don't see where my edge comes from if I'm playing 3-card draws out of position. Maybe I'm too tight.

ok, how about 268?

Hi Buzz,

I would fold 4567 UTG pretty much always. The problem isn't so much your weak hand strength (the fact that you will draw 1 and "overrepresent" your hand helps in that respect) but its just the sheer number of players left behind you, if any of them wake up with a playable hand you are going to be in big trouble with a weak rough hand, usually out of position. It's one of those spots I think you either win the blinds or end up losing a bloated pot.

I fully agree with Seb's post regarding all the playable hands in SB vs say a button open or just opening ourself. I don't see how its close.

-DeathDonkey

Thanks DeathDonkey

Buzz

I think you have to be willing to be more aggressive in the blinds against the button opener since he is more likely to be attempting to steal, as opposed to someone opening UTG or from middle position.

In addition to the more likely to steal idea, if everyone fold, there will presumably more premium cards to be drawn, so we are less concerned about people having blockers than we would be in a multiway pot.

Well the SB is obviously not an enviable place to be but, since we compare SB and UTG here, UTG is a bad place to be pre draw too. You're opening the action. If the game is loose passive, there's a good chance the CO or BTN will call your raise, so you will be OOP. If he just calls, the BB could join the party and you will be in the middle of a 3 way pot. If the late position player is more aggressive, he will 3 bet you and you will be OOP again and have lost initiative in the hand, unless your hand is strong enough to cap.

On the other hand, when you're in the SB, you're almost closing the action. If BTN open raised and you're in the SB, his playing style is obviously very important, and BB's style too, to determine if you want to play the hand, and if you just call or 3 bet (for isolation and not for value since we're talking about non premium draws). If you know the BB well, you can sometimes predict that he will fold a marginal draw even without you 3 betting (a cold call in the SB shows strengh imo). I think that an important tendency to know about your BTN opponent here is : is he showdown bound ? Will you have to show the best hand in the end or will you be able to get away with some sort of (fancy ?) play during the hand to win without SD ? We have to remember that he opens from the BTN so he's not supposed to have a premium draw every time. If he's SD bound, you will lose money if you play very marginal 1 card draws with a straight danger for instance. If he's bluffable, you can play those marginal 1 card straight draws, 3 bet to overrepresent your hand, and hope to bluff him out later in the hand if he keeps bricking with a 2 card draw.

Last thing, we have a better price in the SB, but we mustn't forget the structure. For example, when you play :

2/4, SB is 50 % of the BB.
3/6, SB is 33 % of the BB.
5/10, SB is 40 % of the BB.
15/30 SB is 66 % of the BB.

Your playing style should be different in the SB for all these different structures.

neekola

im not a td expert, but aren't you guys overestimating how often the BB will have unplayable hands? with 4 people having folded already, isn't the deck rich in wheel cards? with position the BB only needs 2 decent cards to play, which doesn't seem too hard to be dealt.

Well i'm no expert either btw. There are two different situations.

1. If it's folded to the BTN who open raises, i think you' d better 3 bet if you play the hand at all (like in LHE probably) unless like i said the BB is so tight that he'll be afraid by your cold call. Maybe you could just call in very specific situations (you have a monster draw so you want the BB in too, or you have a very good but problematic draw like 2345x, 2346x, etc. that you prefer playing passively until you hit it and make more money then with the 3rd player in the pot).

2. It's folded to you in the SB. I think you shouldn't get carried away and raise all the time, especially if the BB is loose and showdown bound. I guess the general idea in this thread is that you play relatively tight in the SB anyway. We compared it to UTG and the question was if we play looser or tighter when comparing both. Once again, we need to look at the structure. I'll give away my SB more easily in a 3/6 game where it's 33 % of the BB than in a 15/30 game (i don't play this high) where it's 66 % of the BB.

neekola

How are these problematic. If they are id like to have the problem every hand

I think you forgot to read the very good but i wrote before problematic ...
It's obviously better to have them than bad hands but you generally play them very strongly because they are one card draws, but have fewer outs than with other hands to improve on a decent hand. You either miss completely or hit big with them so they're probably hands with more variance.
So they are a nice problem to have but i think it can be OK to play them differently (like i described) from time to time. All the time would be too transparent of course.

neekola

Neekola the strategy you are describing is so incredibly unbalanced, if you are just calling with those 1 card draws than you can never reraise any 1 card draw, and that just gives up too much value. I would almost never coldcall in this spot in limit hold'em, but in triple draw I think its fine, they are different games. If we are reraising every 2 card draw from here we are an equity dog vs the button and will bleed money over time, if we 3 bet only the best 2 card draws our hand will be somewhat transparent, coldcalling doesn't have much downside to me in a game where equities change drastically depending on what everyone catches. Also letting the big blind in to draw rough or draw 3 or whatever will make him chase far and make big mistakes later.

-DeathDonkey

DeathDonkey,

I guess my willingness to 3 bet very often here with a 2 card draw is probably to get the pot heads up. I'm probably afraid that the BB finally wins the pot with a thrashy starting hand because i let him in.
So just to make sure i get your point (percentages are not precise, just for the idea) :
I'd better have 38 % equity in a 3 handed pot where i put just 1/3 of the money than having 45 % equity in a heads up pot where i put 1/2 the money, even if i win less often in the 3 handed pot. Plus i guess it would be a disaster to be 4 bet by the button, while if the BB just calls, it closes the action. I hadn't seen it from this point of view, it makes a lot of sense now.

By the way, thanks for making the Triple the Gold series.

neekola