Thanks it feels good to hear i'm some one's hero, best wishes to u too buddy

let me start by saying well done on being ahead after roughly 9000 hands - congrats!!!

like Cyanic, you could use a slightly wider range along with the relative aggression. nothing too huge but - you range play is definately in the ball park. with the increase in range does mean you could attempt to steal a bit more too - around the 29% to 31% mark so given your current VPIP and PDR you're okay but a little tight.

i'd like to see your 'fold to cont.bet (or CB)' ratio. i've played around 16000 hands for a BB/100 of 3 at the 25/50 level, so like Cyanic your BB/100 is a little low.

Thanks for the comments guys. So basically I'm a nit sorta. That's ok for starter I guess. Obviously I'm coming from holdem background and still have a lot of fine tuning to do.

As for my winrate ... meh, 9K hands is really nothing (from what I know about poker or gambling in general). Apparently 5cdl is low variance game, much much lower than holdem but I don't think I should even bother with that part without at least 50K hands (I think). Also I have a feeling I've been running a little cold (trying my best to be level headed and not fall into selective-memory-imma-so-unlucky trap) - meaning I've got quite a few coolers without me ever coolering someone else, including the worst theoretically possible beat in 5cdl (me: 8s full, him 9s full, both pre draw, both rounds capped for a 6BB loss total). It'll come back at some point, I'm patient.

As for your questions about my other stats ...

3bet: 17.49%
fold to CB: 63.80% (OMG this looks reeealy exploitable )

yeah 63% looks a bit much. mines usually 50-55ish. my most recent session was only 500 hands but i folded to cbet 61% and lost quite a bit that session. my vpip was 39 that session though and i therefore had too much crap that i wasnt willing to call with post. im still messing around with my pre draw game atm.

would be interested in what others think is a reasonable fold to cbet value. in theory it shouldnt be all that much really. id guess something like 30ish depending on the potsize.

like the posters before me i would suggest that you open up your game. especially on the button. beein oop sucks way more in draw games than in flop games. against the usual weak tight donk you might get away with opening any pair, AJ+, any flush draw and OESD and some stuff that you pat bluff. maybe even more. be willing to bluff liberally after drawing 3 when they draw 3 as well. its amazing how many pairs people fold since they think that you always improve when you bet after drawing 3. you of course have to start value betting unimproved AA and maybe even more depending on how the blinds react.

im curious to hear other players thoughts on what to do on the button when aggresive players in the blinds start to 3bet light against your obvious weak opening range. i remember getting owned by lookleft2ce the other day.

Couldn't agree more, although I learned it the hard way.

How do you play unimproved AAxxx oop after raising pre and getting cold called by mediocre player ...
a) villain drew 2 or 3 (usually the same)
b) villain drew 1

And how do you play medium 2P (like TT66x) in same scenario?

If I bet usually no worse will call and if I check usually they only bet with better. Sometimes I pick a bluff but probably way more often I pay off better hand ...

That would strongly argue to a fold (against a "mediocre player"), right?

The pot will be laying you about 3.5:1, so optimal bluffing frequency for your opponent is 22%. If the draw went 3:1, mediocre players usually will bet a missed draw here, and often will flat with draws when they shouldn't. Mediocre players probably wouldn't vbet two pair below queens up (sometimes even vbet less). They also wouldn't bet a missed draw that paired above, say, 99.

If it went 3:3, supposing they flatted with KK/QQ here, they're never turning it into a bluff. In fact, i can't imagine a mediocre player ever betting unimproved here after 3:3.

If you think they're bluffing close to optimally (i.e, you lied when you said mediocre), you want to call with the top 77% of your range. You'll improve 30% or so, right?, so you need to call with about half your ui AA. I'm not gonna do the math right now but maybe call down AAK and AAQ?

if you aren't getting paid off postdraw with your lower 2 pair you are not bluffing draws enough.

the problem is that most guys you sit with dont sit regularly so theres no point trying to build history. so use the bluffing missed draws on confirmed regs only.

drawing 1 to trips will discourage those bluffcatching calls. if you bluff enough and know they are paying attention you can even draw 1 to AA and value bet postdraw vs their draw 3. whereas raise and draw 3 and bet post usually means minimum AA which will be reflected in what hands pay you off.

Many good ideas. Thanks.

By 'mediocre player' I meant something like 35/14 (seeing lots of these at my tables) while better players usually do not overvalue their AAxxx and 2 mid pairs hands ... some even check behind lower trips.

There are many little things that may affect one's decision whether to c/f or c/c or b/f. Just played such a hand against 50/15 with fold to CB 30% and felt confident to bet for value (and got called with worse pair). Against nits I check and they check behind religiously. The only problem are those annoying sticky semi aggressive donks who happily call with so-so hands if you bet but often bet themselves if you show weakness. Occasionally it's a bluff but the bigger part is their value range. And by betting too much I've value owned myself more than I can remember. Guess I'll have to balance my ranges a little.

Ummm... if they're effectively turning weak hands into a bluff and value betting thin enough that you don't know what to do, why exactly are they donks?

If they're really mediocre they're not turning QQ into a bluff here ever, and you can check/fold AA after 3:3.

I (as a total newcomer to this game, just watched a DC video and read this thread) am not a big fan of flatting IP ever. I either 3bet for value / semibluff or fold, but it sounds like they're playing well enough postdraw to make you not want to get involved OOP. So tighten up in EP, try to call around GTO if they're bluffing around GTO, and yes, balance ranges.

(That's why i took up this game -- because it's so good for thinking about ranges in a limit game.)

OK, let's talk specifics. Here are my default opening ranges (but i'll alter them if i ever sit at your table):

Value -- draws
_____________
UTG: KK+ -- A high FD, SFD
HJ: QQ+ -- KhFD+
CO: TT+ -- QhFD+
Button: 88+ -- any FD, any OESD
bvb: 55+, AK, OESD+, maybe gutshots down to like T976 or so.

Obviously my plan with all of those is to bluff if i miss, which includes a lot of low pairing.

Enough draws in there or not?

Honestly, looks to me like you're leaking a bit there. Especially in early position with single pairs, kickers are really important. QQ in HJ with no kickers, depending on table, can be -EV; TT on CO with no kickers is definitely -EV at many tables. With all those draws you're going to be leaking a lot of money in late position, and out of SB especially if the BB is a decent player and you don't tighten up those ranges a lot.

yeah +1.

IMO:

for opens,

made hands:
utg: only KK if it has an A with it (which you discard btw), otherwise AA+
mp: KK+
CO: JJ+
BTN 99+

draws:
utg: no draws... i mean 4 to royal yeah but other than that no
mp: min AK flush draw unless A or K is paired, discard all lower pairs + go for flush
co: KQJT+
btn: 2345+

rarely/never play gutshots, also generally don't call raises with draws. if someone already limped, rarely play draws (if they limped they probly are fish, ergo don't bluff fish)

IMO blinds v. player dependent.

this applies to standard loose passive games, if the table is more aggro, loosen up

this equates to about a 18-20% vpip

+1


@LUCIUS: you pretty much described how I play


Also, right now I'm looking looking at Starting Hands Statistics/Starting Hands: after 14K hands played I've been dealt various single pair (predraw) hands about 460 times on average/each and over that sample I'm only showing profit with JJxxx+. Even TTxxx is in red. Could be just sample size ... or me misplaying position, opening too early etc.

no draws UTG? that cant really be good for your postdraw draw-1 range. what do you valuebet post after opening UTG and drawing 1?

Yes, obviously if UTG one needs to open raise with some semibluffs: any straight flush draw or any A-high flush draw and AKQJx are at least some of the hands to open with; only at a loose table where players stubbornly call down with unimproved KK should you cut back on semibluffs from UTG.

this is right.

i don't bother because most tables i sit are loose passive and no point bluffing people whose favourite button is CALL

if you can find a different table all bluffing power to you!

Thanks, and thanks to all who provided feedback. Definitely sounds like i'm opening too wide. I do take overcards into account, but i was using them to expand this basic range rather than to contract in their absence.

So, let's revise. For value:

UTG: AA+, KKA
HJ: KK+, QQA
CO: JJ+, TTA, TT+two Broadway overs
Btn: 99+, 88K+, 77AK
SB bvb: 55+

Draws:

UTG: AhFD, SFD
HJ KhFD+
CO: KhFD+
Btn: Any FD
BVB: Any OESD+, any 4 Broadway

Better?

Intuitively an AKQJ gutshot seems a bit out of place there. I understand that part of the value is pairing and winning, but wouldn't the better draw value of KQJT or a KQ-high FD offset the much weaker draw of a gutshot?

(AKQJ has 10 outs to KK or better, whereas a KhFD has 12 outs. Obviously 6 of the B'way gshot's10 "outs" will often lose, whereas only 3 of the KhFD's "outs" will often lose. Are additional outs to QQ and JJ worth all that much?)

i think AKQJ is more about card removal effect imo. and i would rather drop the Q and J as well and have it in my draw 3 range than further weakening my draw 1 range. since like AKQJT said AKQJ isnt really that strong.

AKQJ is a pretty standard open because of card removal. Depending on villain and what he/she draws I would draw 1 or 3. I almost never open this OOP.

AKQJ is one of the better hands to 3bet semibluff as well IMO

i'd rather have that than AK52 flush draw for example

I'm confused now. Are we talking UTG or not?

The point about card removal is well taken and obviously i haven't been considering it enough. I understand why that would make AKQJ a better open, but LUCIUS, why would you 3bet it? Wouldn't the fact that the opener opened make it likely that they already have a big pair and will call you to draw at a big two pair? Or are you specifically trying to blow people off of a small two pair (a hand against which you have only 4 outs if called)?

The general consensus held by most draw players is that a player who raises and draws 1 is likely to have 2 pair or better the vast majority of the time, especially when that player puts a 3rd bet in before the draw.

A postdraw bet by that same player would define his hand to be a big two pair or better when against a player who called the 3 bet and drew 1. This is because the general consensus also holds that it is unlikely you will get paid off by 1 pair if you played 2233-99xx strongly predraw (this general consensus is actually wrong but prevalent nonetheless) so the player drawing 3 will think the player drawing 1 will also think/know to not bet nines up or worse postdraw.

So it follows that the player drawing 3 with his likely pair JJ-AA will usually fold to a post bet unless he has made that big two pair or TRUP Q Q.

Since those pairs only improve 1 time in 3, a postflop bet should win more than half the time in a pot which is laying you great odds on a bluff.

I think the times 1 pair does pay off UI is probably evened out by the times you improve AKQJ to KK, AA or the straight and get called by the JJ and QQ.

But obv you play the player. Which would also involve not making this play on someone extremely tight or extremely loose, but someone in the middle (20-30 vpip range, 30 at a push) who plays straightforward ABC stuff. Make this play on someone too tight and you run into trips way too often or big 2 pair which will not fold, make it on someone too loose (aka curious) and they call too frequently with 1 pair to make it viable.

If you aren't 3 betting some draws you will get paid off far less and too much respect will be given to your bets and raises.

That brings me onto my last point which breaks with the general consensus about "you can't bet 2 small pair postdraw". If you show down just one or two bricked semibluff 3bets when they pick off your bluff, you can now 3 bet ANY 2 pair and value bet postdraw as they will much more frequently call with AA or KK UI - condition upon targeted opponents being present at the table for preferably both failed bluffs.

You can even go to this extreme if you pick the right player (which I did this evening):


Poker Stars $2/$4 Limit 5 Card Draw - 6 players - View hand 1273729
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Pre Draw: (1.5 SB) Hero is MP with K Q Q 7 3
brefff folds, Hero raises, edy72 folds, Westplayer folds, Färgelanda folds, freddy72 calls

First Draw: (4.5 SB) (2 players)
freddy72 draws 3, Hero draws 1
Hand: K Q Q J 3
freddy72 checks, Hero bets, freddy72 calls

Final Pot: 4.25 BB
Hero shows K Q Q J 3 (a pair of Queens)
freddy72 mucks J J 9 6 4
Hero wins 4.25 BB

Hope you enjoyed that one

I figured if he saw me draw 1 and bluff against him, he's a big fish and I can put him on a very specific range (88-JJ in this case), I draw 1 and can bet just QQ-AA UI and he will call with those pairs UI.

The great thing about that play was that that same player never called me again postdraw without 2 pair+ if I drew 1 and I adjusted by semibluffing more, applying the same theory I relayed to you above - now he's only calling big 2 pair+ and I can bluff my arse off.

Rinse and repeat if he adjusts!

I could also go into how the general consensus by the supposedly more astute players is that calling 3 bets with 1 pair is not profitable - watch them run like little girls as you 3 bet them to death! You need to make those folds incorrect if they do it too often vs your 3bet value range - preferably without them knowing one little bit!

If these players are only continuing 2 pair+, you can play perfectly against them especially in position AND you are almost guaranteed a postdraw bet out of them each time you improve - but then again if you have made them adjust to that extreme your semibluffs will not work often enough so reel it in.

This is some real chameleon ninja sh|t, yo!

BTW if you 3bet and draw 1 IP, and the OR calls the 3 bet and then draws 1, you know they have 2 pair or a draw. So usually check back your Ace highs and paired JJ+ and bet everything worse (that's probably a little bit off, it's a rare occurance so I am still experimenting). If they lead, obv player dependent but generally fold unless you hit your pat hand.

How many buyins do I need for a bank roll in these NL games?