I don't feel like making a new thread for this so here it goes

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit 5 Card Draw - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

Hero (BTN/SB): $211.50
BB: $105.10

Pre Draw: ($3.00) Hero is BTN/SB with K J 8 Q T
Hero raises to $4, BB raises to $14

Villain has been playing pretty loose/passive; he has flatted and checked to me postdraw hands as strong as 8866x, even tho I'm minraising and cbetting like 80% of my hands (not minraising total crap for balance, and not cbetting hands that have dec SD value but don't get called by many worse hands, like JJxyz). Thus I'm putting him on trips or better and some % of high two pairs (like KKxxy+ or QQxxy+). Can we call here or do we face too much reverse IO. What's the worst draw we can call with here?

I think we can call here.
We have position, we get to see how many cards villain draws + there are much money left after the draw

Just throw it away, the draw isn't as good as a flush draw and to top it off the draw might not even be live if he advances with 2 pair or trips. You're more than a 4:1 dog to hit that draw.

By my estimation, he must bet/call with his entire range post draw and have enough two pairs in his range for you to continue here.

I Had a 5 card draw LIMIT question, and I didn't want to make a new thread, so I revived this one! Epic thread btw!

This is a situation you will be in a lot, and any answers would help in all similar situations. Well:

We have the button on a 6max table and UTG openraises, we KNOW utg's opening range for that position is EXACTLY AAxyz and better, and there are no draws in his range. The table is a total average bunch of players. Noone does anything especially stupid, especially smart, or especially out of line. We dont think we have a postdraw edge on the opener (only simply the edge that position gives us). What kind of ranges do we play here?

The median hand in UTGs opening range is TT99, do we ever want to get involved with a hand weaker than this?

What is our default line with:

a) AA-small-small-small

b) AAKQJ

c) 3322-TT88

d) Two pair stronger than TT99, but only marginally, say JJ22 or QQ44

At which point in our range do we start raising?

Is flatting ever an option? If we do begin to flat, how do we balance our range, so that villain can't pinpoint our flatrange?

Does anyone have any numbers on how much equity we need against a given range to justify a raise?

Hope this is something that can be answered, it really would help my game because these situations come up so frequently, and I don't know if Im playing them +ev or if I'm spewing/loosing value!

Thanks

Although the median hand the UTG opener has will be TT99, depending on how he/the blinds play, it should be okay to play any hand that is approximately TT66+ as long as your kicker isn't precisely an ace at $2-4 since the BTN will be putting in $4 in a pot that will have $11 before the blinds act, so having about 4/11 pot equity on average should suffice. If you have an ace kicker, it looks like you should be mucking a hand as good as JJTTA ( but I'd probably still play that hand in practice ); so, it seems that TT66K is okay to play but JJTTA should be very slightly -EV. At the lower limits, the rake is a factor so that you'd likely have to fold anything less than TT99.

a) looks like an easy fold; what can you beat? Not to mention that there is a tiny chance one of the blinds wake up with a hand.

b) similar to a), but if the UTG is somewhat exploitable, you may be able to "bluff" in case the UTG has a weak to medium two pair, but I still think folding is best

c) I can't see playing anything less than tens-up here, but it's possible that a hand like 9988K is close to neutral EV; normally play TT66-TT88 especially with a "good kicker" ( = paint ) unless the rake is a factor.

d) Normally call with jacks-up; with queens up, I'd think you'd want to 3-bet. With specifically JJ22-JJTT and an ace kicker, folding seems best.

Clearly 3-bet with approximately queens up or better, but you could also 3-bet with JJ22-JJTT if the kicker is "good". I think it's important to 3-bet just in case the BB ( or SB ) has a high pair ( QQ-AA ), because the BB would be taking some equity out of the pot with these hands if you were to simply smooth call ( not to mention that the BB could simply have a flush draw; I don't think an openended straight draw in the BB is playable in this spot - or at best about neutral EV to call with if you decided to call ).

If you flat call with hands such as tens-up and jacks-up, you'll probably want to flat call with hands like quads and AAAxy ( where x,y don't include a K or Q so as to give the BB/SB an opportunity to play hands like QQ or KK ); you may want to give up cold calling with hands like TT66 or TT77 and play some of the better jacks-up hands faster by reraising. Other hands to consider smooth calling with are KKKAx and something like AAKK although to be honest, I don't like the last one. If you think flatting with such a "narrow" range is too easy for an opponent to read, you may simply decide to use a reraise/fold approach and simply fold almost all hands that are in the jacks-up or worse range.

I don't know that there are many players at the lower limits that open that tightly from UTG ( but I'd guess there are! ), but if so, one key idea is to simply not give these players action except when you are about even money against their range from the button. Even in the BB vs a "very tight" UTG, you simply fold a hand such as 5522A when they open for a raise.

Even if I know that UTG has that range I will not fold any of the hands you list here. Mostly because of post draw potential. In practice I never fold AA or better for 1 big bet.

Its been a couple years since I played higher stakes fixed limit 5CD but I would routinely 3-bet almost my entire 1-card draw range here. Of course, that is to say that I never put UTG on the specific range you set here.

Against that type of UTG I would still 3-bet Ts up(even though I agree with the GT that bigpooch replys). In practice I dont take much notice about the kicker when it comes to the decision pre draw but I always remember it as to make a potential read post draw.

im in

started playing limit 5CD a couple weeks ago. started out with .5/1 and 1/2 and only played every once in a while.
yesterday i planned to take a "shot" (not really a shot br wise, way overrolled, but skillwise) at 2/4. i ended up playing up to 10/20 and dont feel that theres much of a difference in skill. i guess im running pretty good atm but since the variance is supposed to be so small in L5CD i feel confident.

i get berated left and right and am sure that my game still has tons of leaks, but some of the regs are just so hillariously bad its fun.

evGalois you asked me wether i was "that same idiot from 2p2". i indeed am.

who else is a regular in midstakes L5CD? what are your screennames?

what regs do you think are truly good?
What about MTails, Bessenok, rubannnn, Goauriku? TabberNackle is good i suppose. Not sure about the other ones.
While i have to admit that im not really confident in what i feel is a correct approach to playing the game, the majority of regs seem pretty bad.
It kinda feels like NLH 4 years ago. lots of people making money while not really knowing what they were doing.

Howdy Exameter, I was one of the regs you were playing against the other night. I remember you were running pretty well against me particularly; I seem to recall ragequitting the table for an hour or so after awhile. That said, obviously the games can vary quite a bit, but a lot of the same players will show up from 2-4 to 5-10. And a lot of them are break-even at best. These games are definitely still quite beatable.

Some of the regs you mentioned are pretty good; TabberNackle is obv still the final boss of limit 5cd, although he's been playing mostly triple draw/live poker as of late. I don't know enough about DeuceBuster to comment on him, though from what I can tell his results seem solid. fun2draw1 is always entertaining to play against, especially if he gets sucked out on once or twice. As I said above, though, a lot of the regs are really break-even players, and some, according to my databases, are pretty significant losers. The random fish are definitely still the lifeblood of the games, though, as they are in any game.

Fr1endlyF1re ( "FF" ) and DeuceBuster are the players to play; Cal42688 recently did well ( ~ 25 bets ) in HU$300-600 against FF, so it's likely there will be much more high limit HU action on Full Tilt.

In fairness, cal is currently on a lifeheater over the past year or two. Why is no one giving DeuceBuster any action when he's normally sitting there at 30-60 alone, if he's one of the fish?

deucebuster is a massive staller, i wouldn't play him it less it was 3/600 and i was playing 5 other table so it didn't tilt me #lifehearter =)

I just want to say you are somewhat of a hero of mine cal(even though you have tilted me beyond belief a couple times in 5CD and NLSD on Stars). Just really good at poker. Glad you are doing good in the games.

Why would two pair be in your snowing range? Button versus BB you can probably vbet 7s up on the river and get called by QQ+ or something if you draw 1. (Feel free to disagree; i value bet too thinly.)

It seems to me like your snows should be hands with no showdown or draw value, like AKQ9x.

One weird exception would be against an opponent as discussed in concept 17 for badugi here, who tries to pick off snows more than pick off draw/bluffs. I can't imagine that happening more than once in a blue moon in L5CD though.

One other subtlety: With trips (except in situations where i expect to have to draw out) i draw the standard 1, but i usually toss my bigger sidecard. I figure the rank of the pair doesn't matter if i catch a FH , and lower cards are more likely live. Standard or am i missing something?

About as standard as it gets. Drawing 2 occasionally to trips is a good move too, especially if you once in awhile keep kickers to your pairs.

i do the same, although from time to time i do keep the larger card when HUs in a blinds battle - i figure the opposite is true that with so many folds

It's very simple. If I remember right, I had a pat bluff failed very recent to that hand. I also knew this player paid it off with 1 pair. Therefore I had created history and knew he would be paying off with any decent pair.

I then hoped to have a showdown where he called with one pair vs my two pair so that the whole table would be completely thrown off about my game. If I could get that, I figured I would get paid off postdraw on a lot more hands I wouldn't get paid on normally.

As an aside strategy comment, when you sit down at a table, you normally wait for a good hand while you try and learn about all the randoms at the table. This usually takes quite a long time to get an accurate read on everyone, so why not make history instead of waiting for them to do it for you?

If that wasn't the reason for it, it should've been!

a) sometimes i fold, but i prefer the Call here, mostly due to position.

b) same as above, never a raise - the villians range is too tight to value bet

c) i'd raise with 8s up and better, just call the rest. villian is out of position, and a capped pot (villian reraises) tells us the hand is pretty well dead while only costing us the original predraw one blind (as opposed to two blinds seen post draw per bet). You do sometimes get a slightly stronger hand (higher two pair) to fold by doing so. i'd be looking to check post draw if i don't catch.

d) raise as per (c)


i'm generally not too fazed here with flatting given i tend to not see the same opponent all that often. if i did flat, i'd only flat if my opponent is (a) somewhat seemingly cluey and (b) a tricky player - not that straight forward or will bluff out some of the time with a weaker hand. then i'd flat more often to catch out, not feign strength

Oh, I thought I responded to BigPooch and Bjornar replies! So douchey to ask for an answer, get some really good ones, and then refuse to give any sign of appreciation! Thanks!

There seem to be a pretty wide gap between BigPooch and Bjornar's answers and the ones in Merv's reply!

And I must admit that the two first ones made more sense, Mervs lines seems kinda spewy, especially vs the nitty field we see in most L5cd games.

Merv: since you are 90% certain that you will meet 2pair or better when you hold the two aces, but still call, I think you would have to draw 1 and rep two pairs a lot to make it profitable, no? Since you wont get villain off his two pair hands by simply draw3/bet UI.

And your answer on c), Why 8s up? and not 7s up? You would raise 75% of your two pair hands? That still leaves a lot of two pair hands in their range that beats us, where we valuecut ourselves. Also I think the importance of NOT having an ace kicker can not be undervalued.

similar to what Bjornar posted, i do play As from Position for post draw potential. as such in most cases i also would draw three for the potential improvement. if i was gonna represent anything worth a one draw in this spot with A's i would be raising, not calling.

from my experience, fixed limits tend to require you either show strong aggression or dump your hands - calling/limping still has a place but one that i reserve for situtations the are a little uneasy (or with conflicting info).

given the villian is out of position, i three bet here to:

(a) get control of the pot for post draw - which also means that an awkward decision where i will elect to play an extra bet will be a predraw one bet (one big blind) as opposed to one bet (two big blinds) post draw

(b) to force my opponent to a decision, and thus improve my fold equity. as previously stated, any further aggressive activity from my opponent means that i will be able to get out easily through knowing i am well behind. however, through 3 betting i am also able to represent a very strong hand, and will subsequently be able to convince my opponent to lay down a stronger hand from time to time.

when i do get looked up in these situations, our tight villian will see the play as loose, and will (hopefully at least) loosen up a little to help pay me off when i am playing stronger cards.

But that's not sufficient reason to snow. You're saying that you think he'd pay off with any decent pair and would not pay off with as wide a range if you'd drawn one. That would be really weird (c.f. the Flynn badugi article linked), but if so, nh. Obviously you should also be bluffing him into oblivion with your 1CDs since he apparently often gives you credit for 2p when you draw one.

It's sort of the Mike Caro, light $100 bills on fire at the table for advertising value theory. I'm usually skeptical that the advertising value is worth the price of dramatic advertising, especially in a fixed-limit game.

I'm not playing to make history -- i just like the challenge of trying to maximize EV.

That said, occasionally snowing is profitable and advisable unless people are routinely suspicious of your pat hands.* I just think AKQ94 or 86432 is a much better hand to turn into a snow than 7766A, because AKQ94 can't spike a full house and cooler somebody.



*Rather suicidally, i recently capped AKQ9x in a 3 way pot, patted behind the 3-bettor who'd patted, and bet. I don't recommend this, but it was a fun way to "invest" $12, and i'm sure i'll get called down light forever more.

Very nice thread.

Just getting my feet wet. Tell me what you think:



and by position:

What is your 3-bet percentage ? PDR and VPIP seem reasonable but a little low. BB/100 seems a little low, on 0.25/0.50 should be at least 2BB/100, so you probably have some leaks.