that doesnt make a heap of sense - if we assume the BB has a low pair with an ace kicker to draw 2 then when he doesnt improve he probably isnt calling so the fact its less likely for him to improve isnt a good reason to bet

i think its dumb to sit pat - draw 1 with the plan of value betting unimproved on the basis that the BB will suspect you are raising your draw on the button trying to steal

i think until you get seriously good at draw you should never compromise your drawing odds except drawing 1 to trips which is hardly a compromise at all

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

And here are three situations I shouldn't run into but do at passive tables...

1) I'm in the SB and have AQxxx. It's limped twice to me. BB is not aggro. Do I complete and draw 3 to the AQ, complete and draw 4 to the A, or just muck it? What about AJxxx? KQxxx?

2) I'm in the BB with total trash and it's limped to me. I've got something awful like Qxxxx. Do I even bother keeping the Q and drawing 4, or just draw 5.

3) I'm in the BB with a crap draw like 3467X. It's limped to me, and 4 or 5 way. Do I toss the lot and draw 5, or go ahead draw 1 to the inside straight?

In the above 3 situations, assume table dynamics are such that raising and pat-bluffing are not +EV options.

1) fold; only AK suited if at all - the question you need to ask yourself is how often will making KK win and how the limpers play postdraw.

2) depends who limped and how many limped; if you are heads up with the SB and your other card is as good as an eight, draw three to give yourself the option of bluffing if the SB draws three; if multiway and one of the limpers could have limped in with QQ or KK, draw five! If the button or cutoff has limped and would normally raise with QQ ( clear open raise from those spots ), draw four; on the other hand, if heads up with a limper that will often have QQ or KK, simply draw five.

3) drawing five is normal; even hitting a gutshot is no guarantee of winning the pot

hi, i am pretty new to 5cd and i have a few questions? i have played a little on stars 0,5/1 nl and this is what happened. i had recently sat down and had no reads on anyone. i was inn 50bb. i was utg and dealt j high straight. and raised 3bb. action folded around to the button who raises to 9. i called and pat. he draws 2 cards. i check to him to make him hang himself, but he bets all inn...what should i do here??? its an all inn call for me because he got me covered. i make up my mind and i cant fold and call and loose to a boat. wtf.... what went wrong???? unlucky and variance?

Clear 4-bet predraw since his reraising range should include all trips. I don't know why you didn't value bet postdraw and then fold to a raise. Good bet by opponent ( often the maximum EV versus a player that pays off anywhere close to game theory ) and in practice players often underbet postdraw.

anyone knows where i could find 8 handed online draw?

a little addon for the button play:

My minimum is TT or 99 with two high cards or + an ace. I never play hands like 99234 or 99J54. It`s because the mroe high cards do you have, the less is possible that the blinds have more high cards. It`s simple. I open sometimes with 88 to but I dont have good experiences with this hand.

and the small blind:

I usually complete with AQ+xxx and pair of 5-6, anything worse i fold, anything better I raise. It`s player dependant.

but in the big blind im little woried,

I normally raise KK+ when there are 2 or 3 limpers and af course any better hand. It depends on the players but I would like to ask if I can lower my range or tighten? And the reraise range? These two pair limpers kill me. TWO pairs is - I really think so the trickiest hand in 5cd.

I just wanted to ask,

if there are lets say 2 limpers - which pairs do you guys limp? QQ+ ?
cause anytime there are two or more limpers if I raise with KK+ there i someone that has weak two pair and I`m done if I don`t improve.

actually till now is everything going super and the first 5k hands I have learned a lot. I had little swings, lost more pat hands in a row and I am interested if someone can tell me what was the worst experience in 5cd for him, cause I think everybody should be prepared for swings :P

Make sure it's a small amount in the mix, like 20-30%. Once they tee off on you after they catch, that option's pretty much removed from that table.
Also, note villain's WEAK call in BB- he was obv. drawing to A77 or A66. ick.

Wow, not adding much but thanks to all the posters in here. I was able to smash a freeroll last night playing 5cd for the first time. I entered only because my roommate did. I then proceeded to read this forum and search in the middle of hands. Wow, really good information on here. Thanks guys!

Depends on if they are tight limpers or loose limpers. If they limp in once an orbit, then I actually raise them lighter than I'd normally open. Limping in with that kind of frequency means they're limping in with shorts and 1-card straight and flush draws a lot. They're making a mistake and I want to punish them for it when I can.

If they're tight limpers, like their limp range is my raise range, I'll tighten up my range about the same way that I'd do so if there was a raise ahead. I mean if they are limping with AA+, 2pr or better only, you'll figure that out before you hit 50 hands with them I think.

I disagree. People will call you with whatever thinking you are drawing. Be surprised at what they call you with. I like your other two points in that post btw.

It would really nice if someone(with experience) would make a session video but I think this is not gonna happen so fast, or?

Topic: Playing low two-pair.

Predraw I have a low two-pair like 8844x.

1) There is a raise in front of me, I'm in position. I have no read that player is raising light or that he's insanely tight. Assume a range of kings or better. Am I correct in assuming the default play is to 3-bet?

If I 3-bet with 9's up and lower and the initial raiser draws 1, do I draw 1 or do I toss the lower pair and draw 3 in order to better my chance of tripps? Assume for the moment that it is unlikely the original raiser was coming in with a 1-card flush or str8 draw.

2) I open raise with 7733x from the CO and am 3-bet by a player out of the blinds. Do I call the 3-bet? Assume no clear reads, typical 1/2 limit player. If I call the 3-bet and the 3-bettor draws 1... see above.

3) I open raise with 8822x from EP and am 3-bet by the button. Call and draw 1? Call and draw 3? Just muck?

FWIW, I've been 3-betting, calling the 3-bet, and always drawing one... but I'm beginning to wonder if this is an optimal default.

1) Against a complete unknown I will reraise and draw one regardless. I usually check back if checked to which we will get alot of the time. I need reads to know if I should
a) Flat call pre
b) Break my two pair(hardly ever do that unless you "know" the guy has trips)
c) Pat and essentially make my hand into a bluff
One of the points to be made here is that against a "normal" early position raise low two pairs are ahead of a small part of the players range, but its still enough ahead to warrant a raise. So even if you make a "correct" play pre draw, I dont think we should change our hand too much into "I have to do whatever to win the hand". Sometimes you lose here but aggression is never wrong IMO.

2) Against a complete unknown "normal" player, meh. This is so boarderline I dont know the "correct" answer. Hopefully bigpooch has a good answer on that one. Personally Id call and try and hit. I like to draw

3) I think this is the closest to a fold, but it is the button that raises and people love the button(myself included). You dont beat many two pairs so I suggest two potential routes. Fourbet-pat(essentially a bluff) or call draw 1.

4) Id like to add a number 4. What if you threebet QQxxy and get fourbet cold? Is this always a fold and if so, why? Against what type of player are you willing to continue?

1) To assume that range, the raiser would either be utg or tighter than normal/"correct" in the hijack. Having the button, reraising with about QQ22+ and selectively some hands in the JJ22-JJTT range is better than reraising with the range of 9922+ indiscriminately; if on the cutoff, tighten these standards somewhat slightly ( consider the button and the blinds ). Normally draw one to two pairs ( except when reraising with something like 3322 with the idea of standing pat versus another one card draw ); there is some chance you end up with the best or the opener is semibluffing with something like a straight flush draw or AK-high flush draw.

2) Calling/folding highly depends on the 3-bettor, but against typical players at $1-2, this is normally a fold; if you elect to call, draw one except in the case the reraiser has drawn two. Sometimes you don't have a choice even against a two card draw: with 44223, drawing one is clearly better than drawing to 44.

3) Usually muck here; it's rare to find somebody that will 3-bet with less than 8822 in that scenario; even if the button is semibluff reraising, it's not typical at the lower limits ($2-4 and under).

The only spots to strongly consider calling a 3-bet with a weak two pairs is from the button/cutoff/SB since the reraiser may only have a hand such as AA (or even KK).

About 3-betting with two pairs from 3322 to TT99: you want to be fairly sure about the opener's range and his reaction: e.g., you don't want a player that will always cap with aces up or better unless you don't mind mucking almost all of your range of two pairs for the fourth bet when heads up. If you fail to three bet and draw one, by inference, the opener will sometimes be able to pinpoint your range, so consider some very strong hands (one card draws) to occasionally smooth call with such as quads or high trips.

I actually dont think there is any reason to "underplay" such strong hands in low limits because balancing ranges is maybe priority 20 in these games. People just dont pay attention.

What is your opinion about instead of adding those really strong made hands, instead put in your stronger draws to flatcall with? Ive been thinking about what this does in the smaller stakes(that I admittedly havent played in 5 years).

That might be true depending on the field; however, there are usually at least two or more regulars at a typical $1-2 or $2-4 table and many of them aren't "clueless". It could be close to "correct" to smooth call with not just some big draws ( and reraise with them some of the time ) and some hands such as quads or high trips (some of the time). If the BB (or the SB) is willing to call with any hand in the 88-KK range ( some players will call with even less! ), he'll sometimes be making a "mistake" according to the "fundamental theorem of poker" when you smooth call with KKKAx. Malmuth ( in his draw book ) and others have also mentioned this concept of underplaying hands (although usually not as big as these type of hands) to get more value postdraw. At low stakes (say $2-4 or under), you could be right that "balancing ranges" is not nearly as important as many other factors, but at some tables this needs to be done; otherwise some savvy opponents are able to exploit situations where your range is very narrow: e.g., when smooth calling on the button versus an utg raise. A faster approach often works well at the higher limits because opponents are willing to open a wider range of hands ( more "correctly" ) whereas it seems that most of the players at lower limits open raise too selectively which then argues for tighter 3-betting ranges overall.

You know these stakes alot better then me, thats for sure. Losing a bet at 30-60 is much more of a "crime" then at 1-2.
You havent mentioned anything about what your action would be if there is a 3-bet behind you.

Lets say UTG opens. You flat on the button with, lets make it a somewhat vulnerable hand like QQQKx. Now the BB 3-bets you both. What is your action if:
a) UTG now 4-bets
b) UTG now flats the 3-bet

I probably wouldn't flat call with that (although I've tried in the past) ! I think the worst "strong" hand I'll flat call with is KKK without an ace kicker, but has no Q/J/T (so that somebody has/makes weaker trips); it's usually KKKA or AAA with "good hand features" or quads.

a) call, since QQQKx should be best predraw at least about 1/6 of the time and draw one unless somebody raps pat or both draw two;

b) sure, you would like to mostly call to disguise the cold-calling range, but now that the BB has 3-bet, tend to cap when the BB's capping range includes hands weaker than aces up; there's a pretty strong case to cap now to get two more small bets in the pot when you have the best of it and sometimes the opener gets caught in the middle with a weak two pairs or simply a pair.


Several months ago, I had a "strange" hand (dont' have the HH, but I remember the important details) at $10-20: hijack open raises, I smooth call with AAA in the cutoff, the button 3-bets, SB ( weak loose player ) cold calls, BB folds and opener caps; all call. SB draws one, opener draws two as do I and the button. Post-draw: SB and opener check, I bet and everybody calls! SB has kings-up (!!), opener 222 (!) and button has JJJ (he's the only player that should pay off). If I had 3-bet, would the SB cold call the four-bet with kings-up? (maybe he still would; the opener would more likely muck if I had 3-bet and button 4-bet) I remember a few other hands where I cold call with AAA but get heads up with a three-card draw that checkraises postdraw and pays off with trips.

If somebody plays a reraise/fold strategy predraw with two pairs, he'll likely have to muck hands such as 3322 to 8822 predraw on the button versus an utg raise rather than reraise; sure, it's not a big loss in EV for folding these, but bear in mind that cold calling with these is profitable on the button. On the other hand, by cold calling and drawing one, there needs to be some "balance" so that if the opener has a one card draw, he can't just fire a bet into a heads up pot and expect to take it uncontested most of the time.

Depends on a lot of factors, but primarily the opponent's range; some players will four-bet light with position but then check down unimproved, so you clearly need to call in those situations. With position and a kicker higher than a queen tend to call and obviously draw three against a player that draws two to trips. Theoretically, you'll often have to bite the bullet and put in the fourth bet since you'd be folding a little too often in some spots where your range of 3-betting hands could be as weak as 3322 (e.g., SB vs button). Obviously, against a "nit" who won't cap with less than trips, simply fold without position; even with position, you prefer to have a K/A to discard to have better postdraw equity. Even without an ace or king, obviously QQ22 is worse than QQTT since sometimes 3 bets are lost postdraw with 222QQ, so tend to fold two pairs with 22 or 33 in them.

My number 4 there was more a "challenge" to the players ITT that wasnt as experienced as us.

I want to add one small thing in the reply. I think there is a huge difference how many players there are on the table with queens up. 4-way Im just not folding regardless. 6-way, I will and mostly according to your reply. The distribution of different hands changes radically.

Awesome thread.

Lets keep it rolling. How bout discussion on defending the blinds? I assume defending blinds is a pretty important aspect. Is the reraise bluff on the BB ever recommended or is it read specific?

Id advise not to defend the blinds all the much. Not without a hand atleast. If its the button that opens there is a whole different dynamic, as it is in most games. The problem with draw is that position is so huge. The only real info you get is how many your opposition draws. If you have this information first and can act on it, that is huge for you. As is, defending your blinds should be done with caution.
I addressed blind vs blind somewhat earlier, see that post somewhere ITT.

You suggest bb/sb reraise as a bluff. If you do this, you have to have a plan and you need to follow through. It also needs to go with the dynamic of the table. Tight table, you can be more frisky but expect people to wanna draw regardless. If they put money in they will draw. So what do you do if you reraise, draw 1 on air and the opener, lets say cutoff, also draw 1. Lets say you have AQh. Your plan was to bet post but now maybe you should slow down? Cutoff might have a draw also. I think most people when doing this should have a plan if villian draws 1, 2 or 3(or pat). What if you are 4-bet? Time to give up? Cap and pat and pray? One of the things I look for is timing tells. Many players act real fast if they have hand and slower with marginal hands. Some play super fast only when bluffing, cos they dont care what you have anyway.




I havent done this ITT before, but I appologize for how my posts look. I just brainstorm a lot of stuff and should start having an idea beforehand about how I want to construct posts before I make them. Hope people can get something out of my usual gibberish.

I'm new to this game and have a more technical question about big blind defense.

Let's say the BTN opens, SB folds and we're in the BB. What are our calling and 3-betting ranges against a BTN who opens only with a pair of nines or better (a), with any pair or come hand (b), with every hand (c)?

(a) BTN has 99+: call with TT+ and some good flush draws; reraise with some one card draws, 3322+ and selectively AA (but not every AA).

(b) BTN has 22+ and any one-card draw (also include AKQ(J/T)): call with 33+ and most draws, some AK hands; reraise with some draws, some AK(suited) hands, KK+ and more often than not with QQ/JJ.

(c) BTN has anything: treat this as if you're the SB in a bloated big ante game! Raise with AQ+ and selectively some AJ- and AT-type hands (mabye even KQ-type hands too) and any come hand; call with any weak ace or weak king that you intend to draw four to.