Yeah I think that draw one with trips made me a ton of bets. That was gold. However when I assume a 3 or 4 bettor is pat I draw two.

Yes exactly. Good point with 3-4 bets. Nice talking to you and others, I really think this is a great Topic, and nice idea that you opened this thread. Ill play this game now overyday cause I like to study a lot of games(6max, stud 8, omaha 8 plo and limit, hu sng, badugi and so on) and I will stick to this topic.

now a question:

the biggest problem that I now have are the 2 pairs. I just dont know how i should react with a lets say 2277x when there is one limper and one raiser or , two raises, or a raise and rreraise in front of me.
I see manny people limp the weak the weak 2 pairs, and when i see like 2 limpers and I am in button with AAxxx or AAKQx I just call or what? I think a raise is pretty bad idea.


There is one thing I do sometimes:

I`m on the button with 88+xxx and try to steal the blinds: but when both CALL - I stand pat - and fire a bet on the "river"

cause I will rarely improve and if they call they almost always have one better pair or a weak two pair and that beats me.

So is this play correct? But I dont do this always, just sometimes.

<there is only one thing that someone should never do in 5cd > limp and then stand pat - no one will trust you lol


It would be really helpful if someone would give some hands when it`s ok to limp from different positions(except with draws)

i used to do this a lot - still do it a bit - the only reason to limp and then stand pat is because you wanted to lurk pre-draw and 3 bet a raiser - you always have it

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Yeah I think thats not a good play generally unless you are very sure there will be a raise or two behind you. Guarantee yourself that money and also disguise your hand strength by doing the same thing you always do when you play: raise. You don't ever get paid off doing that move IMO.

There is an obscene number of times lately that I have had a raise called (with kings or aces up, for example) by someone with trips who then check calls post-draw. Am I nuts or is this just really weird to be happening *a lot*? (they draw two, of course, and don't have an ace in their hands when they show, so I'm reasonably sure they are not drawing to aces up and hitting trips, but even if they are, check calling is still weird, right?)

5 Card Draw Hand Odds Chart

One Pair 50%
Two Pair 7.7%
Three of a kind 2.8%
Straight .3%
Flush .23%
Full House .16%
Four of a kind .0015%
Straight Flush .025%
Royal Flush .00007%

Awesome thread I am just getting into the game and this has been a great help.

Your numbers don't quite look like they match any table I've seen. I suggest you look here for what I think are more accurate numbers.

hm i found this on website and just copied to the forum cause I wanted to give some extra information to you people. tnx for this page spedmonkey. If the numbers I posted are not accurate then sorry folks :P

YES! And it can be so frustrating. Because you put in value bets when you have the worst hand because they didn't tell you that you don't have the best hand. They take two and have trips after LIMPING and you rightly value bet aces up, only to be shown THREE F_CKING KINGS lol

This keeps happening. People don't understand how strong their hands are. IMO they are underrolled for the game and are literally too scared to 3 bet because they can't handle the swings. These people just want to keep their variance down (but also their winrate!). People hardly ever 3 bet two pair either whereas I am doing it A LOT. I am seeing guys OPEN LIMP ON THE BUTTON(!!!) with EIGHTS AND THREES for Christ's sake!

I don't know if you've noticed this but there is a whole large contingent of people who play in this fashion in not only Draw but all the other games including NL Hold'em. In my regular Omaha 8 game, there are guys who only call on the river with a flush and the nut low in heads up pot - THAT IS A HUGE HAND EVEN WITH A PAIR ON THE BOARD! In Hold'em, guys are not 3 betting AK. In live small stakes Holdem people don't 3 bet less than QQ!!!! In NL 2-7, guys won't raise a 96 after the draw. Heck, some of them don't even raise 8s. In triple draw, I see guys JUST CALL with a Seven on the river even though you were drawing every street.

Seems some guys literally need THE NUTS to raise.

So when these people do raise in Draw, folding aces or a low two pair in the big blind could not be done faster.

IMO the best way to adjust is to tighten up your raising range after they have limped, and hardly ever call them when they raise.

if i understand correctly - you have aces or kings up and your pre-draw raise gets called by someone out of position who draws 2 and checks post draw ?

i dont think its normal to bet unimproved in that position - they either have trips or they are folding to a post draw bet nearly all the time

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

An awesome initiative! I hope this one keeps on going. I've been playing 5cd for about three weeks and I think I've got a fair hang of it. I'm gonna add a few of my thoughts after my session.

Also, we should definitely do a sweat with a few of us at the same table: Playing the lowest stakes or something. I think that could turn out great.

I said earlier we could play together sometimes to lookup our play. I`m in!

I'm playing against Lucius atm!

im a little late, still playing? name of the table ? :P

You can figure out pretty quickly if a player really does not know of his cards' strength by limping trips and drawing. Just takes a couple of hands, then it becomes obvious whether he's a total newbie or it was done on purpose.
Some players limp on trips and draw 2 to fake a hand like AAK/KKA, hoping to get a call post-draw, which is then a big bet.
Judging by your comment "YES! And it can be so frustrating." it sometimes works

my added thoughts in blue, above.

One of the mistakes Stars made when they intro'd NL 2-7 is not spreading 25max, 10max, or 5max tables. I sure as hell ain't rolled for 50 max, and
NL 2-7 is the LAST place on earth i would short-stack.

The rumor mill has it that full tilt might be our salvation in all this There's an undercurrent of gossip saying that Howard Lederer is now convinced that online draw has not led to major collusion, only spurts of bonus-whoring
in KC lowball by the Changle guyz [this stuff made NVG, and was so blatantly obvious it was hilarious]. It's entirely possible that Tilt might intro draw games next year.

Lucius, the draw games @ Stars have evolved into their current nitty state.
Early on, when draw and TD were introduced, it was wide-open as hell.

Christ, yeah very nitty sometimes. I was sitting at a table with average players to the draw "3%". Not a good game (not only was it soooo tight, it was quite aggressive too) but I still cleaned up this morning, +35 dorrars ($1/$2) in under an hour!

Wish I had some software for it, you know, a tracker.

I HAVE A QUESTION OR TWO

Say you raise on the button with aces, a guy 3 bets in the big blind and draws 3 then bets, DO YOU CALL UNIMPROVED?! I had that hand today. Guy obv had aces with king kicker and value bet! Damn that ten kicker.

Say you raise on the button with aces and big blind calls. He draws 3 as do you. Do you bet unimproved a lot?

Is it ever advantageous to stand pat with a pair, JJ-AA, when you were the raiser and were only called in one spot?

OK here is a hand. I was unsure about the value bet.

PokerStars Game #30736512312: 5 Card Draw Limit ($1/$2) - 2009/07/22 6:59:23 WET [2009/07/22 1:59:23 ET]
Table 'Mnesthus II' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: valkorn ($15.75 in chips)
Seat 3: elfrum ($20.25 in chips)
Seat 4: fun2draw1 ($28 in chips)
Seat 5: 78OFFTILT ($92 in chips)
valkorn: posts small blind $0.50
elfrum: posts big blind $1
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to 78OFFTILT [A 6 7 7 6]
fun2draw1: folds
78OFFTILT: raises $1 to $2
valkorn: folds
elfrum: calls $1
elfrum: discards 2 cards
78OFFTILT: stands pat on [A 6 7 7 6]
elfrum: checks
78OFFTILT: bets $2
elfrum: calls $2
*** SHOW DOWN ***
78OFFTILT: shows [A 6 7 7 6] (two pair, Sevens and Sixes)

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.50 | Rake $0.25
Seat 1: valkorn (small blind) folded before the Draw

Seat 4: fun2draw1 folded before the Draw (didn't bet)


Was that a good play? Obv mixing it up patting with two pair.

PokerHands is a free program that has support for 5 card draw tracking.

I think you have an auto bet and the reason for that is your ace kicker. He is obv drawing to a pair with an ace and you have one of them.

I had PokerHands, but now it says the version expired when I start. Isnt this program freeware? I just dont know anymore what to do to get it working, clean installation doesnt work..

Newest version: http://www.cartridgesoftware.com/fil...hands_b100.exe

I disagree with the part about variance. You don't really lose as much from it, but the variance (from my point of view so far) can be a real bitch. There's quite alot of time where nobody is ever giving you action, and when they do they draw and hit two outers. I usually get the swings in days more than in sessions.

tnx man,

so which stats should I add? I have added only win procentage - win %

It would be usefull if any program had live tracking for how much cards did they draw - casue im always looking in the text editor when I multitable.

here are my first 3k hands @ microstakes:



how would a normal VPIP and AF look in this game? What should be the normal aggresion factor? Any ideas?

How do I get this going? PostgreSQL what?