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Old 04-14-2017, 05:22 AM   #1
Codfish60
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Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

It's perhaps a bit vague, but I'd like to know how people face playing OOP when clearly capped with a weak pat hand? Typical scenario I face is 3betting a pat T9 from the SB vs an MP opener who then draws 1. I check, they bomb it and every time I'm left guessing. I feel like leading out to prevent getting bluffed doesn't make up for the times I value own myself. I often check big hands as well, but there's nowhere near enough of them to balance out all the weak pat's I have in my range.

If you watch the 2014 $2k SCOOP 2-7 FT, at 8:30 where button (chip leader) opens, SB (short stack) 3b with a pat T98, BTN calls, it goes 0,1. BTN makes an 87 and when checked to him, ships it when SPR was 1.5. SB check/folded. I don't like the idea of patting and then check/folding in a spot where the villain knows we're capped (Edit - not quite capped, but full of weak hands in our range).

Last edited by Codfish60; 04-14-2017 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 04-14-2017, 11:24 AM   #2
RichGangi
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

You just have to make a read and go with it imo. Not a game for the faint of heart, you've got to make some tough calls or you'll get killed.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:47 PM   #3
LUCIUS VARENUS
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

Player dependent.

Without reads, IMO a baseline should be check/fold.

Depending on stack depths and antes, it's not the worst thing to just fold pre OOP.

It's not like you're giving up a lot. Read what it says in Super System 1. He says something along the lines of let the gamblers and live ones play the jacks and tens, he's waiting for better.

In any poker game you are usually best not playing out of position with hands with high reverse implied odds.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:24 PM   #4
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

Sounds like you've established the source of your problems regarding the lack of balance in your range. Either check more strong hands or bet for thinner value and generally make yourself a balanced check/calling range. But all this goes out the window vs the bad opponents I presume you're playing in low stakes 2-7 NLSD, so you're much better off playing an exploitative strategy. Try to get reads on who bluffs and who doesn't.

I'd love to learn more about this game so I don't have any specifics to say -- I too am curious by your answer. I think I call too much with weak pat hands.

One reason not to just flat pre with weak pat hands is to not cap your range. But you are doing that when you check postdraw. Even if your check range is balanced, you probably won't get enough hands vs your opponents and they prob won't be paying enough attention to realize you're balanced. So I'd say a straightforward, value-heavy strategy is best for low stakes of any game -- and make some general reads on what the average donk does in terms of bluffing or not and follow that stereotype until a player does something to convince you otherwise.
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Old 04-14-2017, 06:17 PM   #5
Codfish60
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

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Originally Posted by RichGangi View Post
You just have to make a read and go with it imo. Not a game for the faint of heart, you've got to make some tough calls or you'll get killed.
Yeah it's definitely a tough game! I've picked up bet sizing and timing tells on certain players but for a lot of people it can become dicey.

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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS View Post
Player dependent.

Without reads, IMO a baseline should be check/fold.

Depending on stack depths and antes, it's not the worst thing to just fold pre OOP.

It's not like you're giving up a lot. Read what it says in Super System 1. He says something along the lines of let the gamblers and live ones play the jacks and tens, he's waiting for better.

In any poker game you are usually best not playing out of position with hands with high reverse implied odds.
Yeah but against 1 card 9 draws I have ~60% equity with a pat T9 which is quite significant so I can't fold every weak pat hand. Congrats on the HORSE win btw, I had you pinned to win it (after I busted of course )

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Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Sounds like you've established the source of your problems regarding the lack of balance in your range. Either check more strong hands or bet for thinner value and generally make yourself a balanced check/calling range. But all this goes out the window vs the bad opponents I presume you're playing in low stakes 2-7 NLSD, so you're much better off playing an exploitative strategy. Try to get reads on who bluffs and who doesn't.

I'd love to learn more about this game so I don't have any specifics to say -- I too am curious by your answer. I think I call too much with weak pat hands.

One reason not to just flat pre with weak pat hands is to not cap your range. But you are doing that when you check postdraw. Even if your check range is balanced, you probably won't get enough hands vs your opponents and they prob won't be paying enough attention to realize you're balanced. So I'd say a straightforward, value-heavy strategy is best for low stakes of any game -- and make some general reads on what the average donk does in terms of bluffing or not and follow that stereotype until a player does something to convince you otherwise.
I don't flat pat hands pre, I'll always 3b as I do for my snows. I want to develop a good baseline strategy for use against tougher players but so far I've tried to remain value heavy and hero call less in the low stakes tourneys. I'm likely heading to Vegas for the 1st time this summer and might reg the $1500 NL 2-7 (WSOP) so I'm hoping to get a little better before then.
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Old 04-14-2017, 09:58 PM   #6
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

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Yeah but against 1 card 9 draws I have ~60% equity with a pat T9 which is quite significant so I can't fold every weak pat hand. Congrats on the HORSE win btw, I had you pinned to win it (after I busted of course )
Sure, you have that, but you can't make much/any money on your hand after the draw unless a) your opponent bluffs you, and b) you have the stones to hero call them. You'd have to be in a ridiculously good game for people to be regularly paying you off with worse and post draw bets being profitable.

This drawback IMO weighs heavily against your 60% figure. Worth noting on a theoretical level equity doesn't equal the money you will make on the hand, only what portion of the pot you expect to receive if the hand were to stop there and you were all in with no more bets to come thereafter. It's like having two pair no low draw on a 986/J52/similar in omaha high low. You might have the best hand and equity now, but you are not going to make money playing that hand aggressively. Obviously making money is the essence of winning in cash poker.

I think what you're saying is definitely more applicable to tournaments where you will find those spots to be all in pre so you don't have to worry about post draw betting and reverse implied odds. Typically you won't be able to get it in pre in a cash game profitably long term unless you are playing in a very shallow stacked game (very unlikely in a NL game with only two betting rounds).

I also think the game is going to be much more enjoyable for you if you're only drawing at 97 or better in most spots because it gives you so much more situations in which you can confidently value bet postdraw and even call raises.

FWIW I agree with you on avoiding cold calling pre.

Thanks for your congratulations; everyone has been amazingly supportive and I feel great because of it. I played well, no doubt, and was probably one of the better players to say the least, but there is no doubt I ran very hot. I didn't brick a lot of hands throughout the tournament, put it that way. Just remember that one where I backdoored an ace high flush after barreling all streets with (69)A477 and got my last chips in on the end in stud against matey boy's 5423 board! That rivered T was a beautiful card, which had I not received I would be on the rail.

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Old 04-19-2017, 11:53 AM   #7
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

I'm late to the party but I though I'd give my 2c on playing these spots.

One strategy you can try is to 3b and check your whole range. If you 3b T9pat+ OOP then 50% roughly of your range is Tpats. So if you get over bet 1.5 pot in your example you only have to call 97pat+ to not be exploited and this range is so strong it prevents thin value overbets as your range is no longer capped.

If you are betting all your 9pats+ then your checks are all Ts and can get over bet by 9s+ and a lot of bluffs.

You can also try a mixed strategy of checking some 9pat+ and betting others so you don't get stomped by overbets.

From playing micro-stakes Turbo and KO $2-$27 SDNL tournies I think most people don't bluff enough so an over fold strategy can't be that bad. For thinking players its very easy to bluff optimally in these spots so you should just work out how often you need to call and call that much.
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Old 04-19-2017, 07:27 PM   #8
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

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Originally Posted by D Villain View Post
I'm late to the party but I though I'd give my 2c on playing these spots.

One strategy you can try is to 3b and check your whole range. If you 3b T9pat+ OOP then 50% roughly of your range is Tpats. So if you get over bet 1.5 pot in your example you only have to call 97pat+ to not be exploited and this range is so strong it prevents thin value overbets as your range is no longer capped.

If you are betting all your 9pats+ then your checks are all Ts and can get over bet by 9s+ and a lot of bluffs.

You can also try a mixed strategy of checking some 9pat+ and betting others so you don't get stomped by overbets.

From playing micro-stakes Turbo and KO $2-$27 SDNL tournies I think most people don't bluff enough so an over fold strategy can't be that bad. For thinking players its very easy to bluff optimally in these spots so you should just work out how often you need to call and call that much.
You certainly can't autocheck when pat because you are snowing sometimes. It has always seemed to me that the right strategy must be mixed, but I don't play the game often enough to put the time into doing the math.
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Old 04-20-2017, 10:29 PM   #9
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

I have been thinking about this spot and what the difference between betting and checking the whole range is. With checking you can call to get value from bluffs and with betting you can get value from their middling hands that they will not bet or bluff as well as allows you to snow and get value from bluffing.

If you are bluffing optimally and your opponent is defending optimally then it is slightly +EV to bet a Tlo for value if you bet 1/3 pot. To not be capped and exploitable you will need to bet your whole range like this.

The question then is what is the best frequency to bet? Probably depends on how aggressive your opponent is and stack sizes.

If anyone is interested in working out strategies for this game for the upcoming SCOOP hit me up by DM I love to have someone to talk with for more indepth strategy discussion.

Peace.
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Old 04-20-2017, 10:52 PM   #10
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

I agree with some of your points. But you can't just decide that it should be 1/3 pot that you should bet, before deciding your frequency. You say it like they are completely separate things. But they are directly related.
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:45 AM   #11
D Villain
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

Yes true but in the strategy I gave you are betting and checking all your range at the same frequency and betting a size so the EV is >= to checking with the worst hands for the whole range which is a small size. So say bet 60% of the time with every hand in the range and 40% of the time check.

I'm not saying this is the highest EV strategy I am just trying to come up with something that can be used v an unknown villain. If someone played this way how would you play against it?

There is probably higher EV strats where you bet/check different frequencies for each hand and use different sizes. But then it becomes harder imo to play and stay balanced when betting/bluffing and against raises and bets of different sizes if you have a complicated range.
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Old 04-22-2017, 07:56 PM   #12
609_sixonine
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

i don't like the check with T9xxx while u 3bet the opener and stand pat. on the one there is a thin value betting like half pot. on the other one , the bet protect you from bluff shove all in because when you check ur showing that ur range is T high or J high so if vilain show you on other spots that he is good he can go all in with weak hand like paired or with an ace to let you fold ur T high. in contrary when u bet after 3bet stand pat u represent more force and having hand with 8 high or 9 is very possible.

hope u understand my weak english i think this is my first answer in this forum.don't hesitate to post question about 2-7 games i'll be helpfull
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Old 04-23-2017, 02:31 AM   #13
Codfish60
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

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i don't like the check with T9xxx while u 3bet the opener and stand pat. on the one there is a thin value betting like half pot. on the other one , the bet protect you from bluff shove all in because when you check ur showing that ur range is T high or J high so if vilain show you on other spots that he is good he can go all in with weak hand like paired or with an ace to let you fold ur T high. in contrary when u bet after 3bet stand pat u represent more force and having hand with 8 high or 9 is very possible.

hope u understand my weak english i think this is my first answer in this forum.don't hesitate to post question about 2-7 games i'll be helpfull
Thanks. This is what I've been doing with my weak T's and it has worked fairly well. I'm not sure what we do with weak J's against good players though. I play low stakes tournaments and people don't bluff enough so I'm happy to check/fold weak J pats but I'm wondering how we construct a good checking range when we have 125 combos of J's most of which are too weak to bet for value. We can't just bet our whole range once we 3b can we?

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Old 04-23-2017, 03:05 AM   #14
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

there is something more important than theory of the game in draw games. during a 2-7 tournament you must notify to the other players that you are a good drawer and that you play agressive atfer discared cards (doesn't matter if your are in value or in bluff). then, in spot like you post you can auto protect from any bluff and you have option to bluff or semi-bluff in your turn. i remember i won many little tournies of 2-7 SD and i do like this
psychologiy of the game will let you win not the theory
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:30 AM   #15
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

You should usually not find yourself with a pat hand OOP that you are not going to lead with post. This is a naturally complete range with some extremely bad hands with paired blockers like 99887, strong pats and some middling pats. Weak but breakable hands you will usually break down to draw smoother and retain more options post. If you want to keep hands like T98 in your pat range then you should be leading with them post. I think a breakable T98 can also be played as a flat call/D1 OOP, though that really depends on how wide the aggressor opens based on past showdowns. If he's opening all pat Jacks then breaking is clearly worse.

I actually think late position with these hands is more difficult. Opening T98 in late position with a gutshot should usually be played stongly as a pat hand, though you will sometimes play a bigger pot than you'd like with it when one of the blinds 3b. This is the trickiest spot in the game in my opinion, and is the most awkward tournament spot because it usually means somebody ships pre and somebody hates life.
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Old 04-24-2017, 12:27 PM   #16
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

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You should usually not find yourself with a pat hand OOP that you are not going to lead with post. This is a naturally complete range with some extremely bad hands with paired blockers like 99887, strong pats and some middling pats. Weak but breakable hands you will usually break down to draw smoother and retain more options post. If you want to keep hands like T98 in your pat range then you should be leading with them post. I think a breakable T98 can also be played as a flat call/D1 OOP, though that really depends on how wide the aggressor opens based on past showdowns. If he's opening all pat Jacks then breaking is clearly worse.

I actually think late position with these hands is more difficult. Opening T98 in late position with a gutshot should usually be played stongly as a pat hand, though you will sometimes play a bigger pot than you'd like with it when one of the blinds 3b. This is the trickiest spot in the game in my opinion, and is the most awkward tournament spot because it usually means somebody ships pre and somebody hates life.
That makes sense, thanks for your input. I agree that those spots facing 3bets ourselves are probably more difficult spots to play. I've currently got a friend working with me on the maths in these kind of spots, pinpointing the exact worse hand we can call with in particular spots vs particular bet sizings/hand ranges.

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Old 04-25-2017, 09:07 PM   #17
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

I keep looking at this thread and thinking Pot+ and lead. I haven't posted this yet because this could be terribly bad advise, but it just seems better than the alternatives. Would seem to put you out of balance (or lose value when you try it with legit strong hands).

Folding just seems too weak for what is a pretty strong hand. Calling and patting just screams rough 10. Moderate 3 bet and check seems bad as well. Agree that you must lead all 3 bets.

Only other idea I can think of is a "second hand" read. Play it excessively strong half the time half the time this situation arises (like if the second hand on your watch is 0-30 and passively or fold when it's at 31-60).

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Old 04-26-2017, 07:09 AM   #18
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Re: Playing weak pat hands OOP in 2-7 NLSD

The more I analyse do the more I like betting your whole range small rather than checking as the EV for the weakest hands the Tpats is about the same but for the stronger hands the EV is higher by betting this also allows you to bluff more hands too.

Against someone who opens 97-1 card draw and calls a 3b IP there is huge value shoving 8pat+ and some bluffs. But its probably good to put some % of these in the small betting range to use as a call vs shoves.

So I have two questions for you guys:

Against this strategy as the the caller of the 3b how can you exploit it?
Small raises with 97+ seem reasonable and shoves with 8+. You will have to call with A+ v the small bets to avoid being bluffed if you are not raising but by having a high raise frequency the call range becomes stronger and the value of betting T goes negative. Making all the Tpats checks then we run into the same problem posed in the initial post.

As the 3-better what are the best snow bluff hands? I like low 2pair hands with a 3rd low card. So something like 22775 for blockers or straights like 45678 or flush combos of any low hand.
What are the best bluff hands to shove?
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