Not something I do very often as most opponents check back but have had this come up a few times lately, there's a cutoff button open and we call in the bb with 2 cards and the first draw goes 2-1. As I'm looking at my cards my opponent dark bets. Normally I lead improvement here (not so vs people that will fire unimproved though) so curious what the worst hands you guys check raise here would be, or should we basically just fire any 8 draw and it's not worth discussing.

What is this magical "cutoff button open" which you speak of?

After 2 vs 1 oop on 1st, I don't think that you should lead anything here. I don't, and I would pretty much mark down anyone who does as a fish.

Also how do "most opponents check back"? Either something is wrong in your description of the hand, or you play against terrible players.

lol sorry, first draw went 3-2.

If they bet dark I'll k/r my whole D1 range. No reason to split it, especially when it's clear that you're smooth to start

Check call all improved draws to 1 card draws unless you are a bot. If CO range is "magical" then true, c/r would be GTO but without any reads if you both have a 1card draw with a deuce in it you are pretty much 50/50 throughout all of your both ranges but in one hand even a hand like 2347x could be weaker vs a 2486x (and there is also position).

The thing is, if VILLAIN is not a standard player then leading out would be correct since VILLAIN could be checking back all UN-improved hands to a 1card even when you draw two, but vs a player above the Novice difficulty c/r would only be spewing.

You can also do it like Sammy Farha meaning that you check raise after first draw and then bet after second draw without improving and then ask VILLAIN if he wants to chop after third draw.

edit: Btw this is FL we are discussing right?

edit2: saw your second post now that it went 3:2, check raising 50% of the times works.
Why 50%?
Villain draws 28% two times meaning 51% double brick on first draw and when you draw 3 cards and improve to a 1card draw and check you can trick VILLAIN into betting a 1 card draw to 9 or T. By checking you also lose a small bet here 50% of the time But I think VILLAIN is betting more than that so C/R in this spot would be the best. If you improve to a draw to an ugly 8 (8753x) then leading out is best for pot control.

I would c/r all pat hands and c/c all 1-card draws, leading next street with them if he draws 2 again or if we improve to pat. c/c everything else.

I don't see any benefit to splitting our 1-card draws into c/c and c/r. If we c/c 7432 and get there after drawing 3 on the first draw, our range will be so rough that we should be able to get multiple bets in on later streets often. c/r-ing it nets us one small bet and turns our hand face up, costing us action on the big streets.

1. how are you coming up with 28%?

2. why would you lead into someone who is dark betting?

1. VILLAIN has a hit range between 25 to 32% when HERO draws 3 and hits two cards. 348xx for example has 16 outs. If HERO starts with 27xxx VILLAIN has 14 outs to a 1card draw, if VILLAIN hits 1card then it is drawing mostly to 28%, If any of the two cards that HERO hits is also a blocker then VILLAIN has 27-28% (10 outs).

2. To induce a raise (I did not read OPs second post when writing that). But check raising or check calling is better now that I think of it. Check calling cuz of our range gets wider when we play that line meaning more profit from teh big bet streets. There are 4 lines to continue here with and every one of them is right so maybe leading out with the reason to raise a raise adds a fifth way of playing this hand meaning bet, raise, raise, raise, call, bet, raise, raise, raise, call, check, bet, raise, raise, raise, call/fold.

If villain incorrectly dark bets this 3-2 spot, I'd x/r all 8 or better D1.

This assumes our D3 BB defense range always contains a deuce.

Normally that's the case, in this spot ik white wide

Care to elaborate on why? I don't think you're pushing much equity with a hand like 8742. That's probably barely better than his median hand.

Just a guess: so you can take the lead on the hand with the drawing advantage rather than continuing passively where you'll have a harder time playing marginal hands on the turn.

I think 8742 should have a slight equity edge (didn't work it though), and if it doesn't it would be so small that the hand is better played aggressively to keep your range balanced. If you play it passively you can put yourself in all kinds of weird spots for the rest of the hand.

He's betting dark in a wide range spot to begin with, pre draw. If you split this D1 range into x/c and x/r you will get exploited by a competent opponent. He will freeze you correctly and value raise thinner otr, knowing that your range is capped at 87 or rough 86 and be able to play perfectly.

I completely agree, maybe we're saying the same thing then. I thought you were advocating splitting into (c/r 8 or better draw 1 and c/c 9 or worse draw 1).

I understand what you mean, but most villains who bet dark here are not competent.

It is tough to apply analysis to half the hand to a competent villain when he butchers the first half of the hand. I guess it's a matter of degree.

In lhe, if a hero in position raises a K97dd flop and then check backs the 4x turn, most somewhat incompetent villains can still put hero on a FD. 2-7 seems simple enough game (like lhe), so will the villain take notice if we split D1 range? I hope not, but your premise is logical, no doubt.