I play on Pokerstars.it and NL turbo sng are the only 5CD games avaiable.

I have a decent hold'em background but still i feel i am missing a lot when games came to the end..

Does anybody have any advice? maybe some rule of thumb or some comparison between hold'em's endgame hands ranking with 5cd hands?

thank you

Well, I haven't played a lot of NL5CD, but we can reason it out from combining 5CD cash and NL tourney principles. As stack sizes get short, you need to shove wider to preserve fold equity, because having such a short stack that no one ever folds to your shoves is very bad. However, in case you run into a big hand, it seems you'd be a big underdog relative to HE with your draws, since you only get to draw once. So I'd rather shove 44 otb than a flush draw, because 44 can get called and draw out on a single overpair much more easily than a FD can, and really isn't even that much worse off against two pair. What I don't know is how often people are going to call off light relative to a HE tourney.

Just to give us something concrete, here's an attempt at a range chart from someone who's played this game maybe twice in his life:

Assume we have 10x the blind, no antes, and people playing too tight as the bubble nears. Shove the following*; fold all else:

SB: Any pair, any ace, one-card FDs headed by a J or better. Consider shoving any five if they don't start calling light.
Button: Any pair, half our naked aces, one-card FDs with an ace.
CO: 55+
HJ: 99+
UTG: AA+


I'm hoping someone who knows this game will chime in so I can see how I did.
====
*With aces up+ and oblivious opponents, you might prefer to make a small raise to entice them into the pot. Once they catch on, shove everything you play instead of making small raises.

Do we really want to risk 9.5 bb to win 1.5 bb with hands like naked aces? Unlike NLHE, we usually have very little equity when called. I would either shove much tighter (99+), or raise 2.5x with a lot of hands and play poker from there.

You might be right. What would be the theoretical reasons why raising 2.5x with a 10x stack is wrong in NLHE but right in NL5CD?

(The reason it's wrong in NLHE is, a 2.5x raise pot-commits us getting about 1.7:1 or better, and against all but the tightest 3-bettors folding anything we'd open getting those odds is always going to be wrong.)

In endgame situations, ICM matters. You will usually need at least 60-70% to call a raise to be profitable. AK vs any two cards is only 65%, so very few hands can actually call even if opponent is shoving 100%.

However, 5cd equities are much more definite. 2p+ and overpairs have at least 70% against weaker hands, and an observant BB can easily call profitably if you jam too often.

What type of 5CD is it? Do you play 52 card pack? AFAIK it's not typical in Italy.

Thanks all of you guys, expecially to AKQJ10 for his long and detailed post



yes you're right, before the online poker boom 5CD in Italy was generally played with a reduced deck, depnding on the number of players in game, and it was also by far the most popular poker game

but i am referring to standard 52 cards deck 5CD, which is the only avaiable on Stars. As i see your location is Moscow, i'm curious how you got to know about that

What is an endgame to you? 10x bb is not an endgame to me, you can still open standard and fold if you think you have too weak of a hand.

I always have a very hard time making my thought process into words for this but I generally go with all pairs when its fold or jam time but it also depends on opponent. Some you should open as light as AJh. Jamming all decent flushdraws and broadway straightdraws are fine, but one should consider drawing to AK rather then AKQT and other gutters to broadway, FWIW I think its a close decision.

Your calling range should NOT include draws unless they are very strong, like AKQflushdraws. Most of the regs on .com have a flawed shoving strategy, IMO, when they get short because they very rarely are put in that position.

Didn't remeber, may be from http://www.pagat.com/poker/variants/italian.html , but I guess it was at the moment, when there was an INFO that EPT Sanremo would have 5CD live Tournament.

I still don't know what desk will be used:

April 17 - Thursday Event 27:
EPT - NL Five Card Single Draw High - Championships - 30,000 Stack - 30 Minute Levels - "6 Handed"

Hi all,

I can confirm the 5 Card Draw Championship in Italy is going to use a 52 card deck. We looked at doing an IPT version with the more popular strip deck version of Italian 5 Card Draw, but we didn't have space in the schedule for it this year. I'm hoping the IPT will include it at a later stop in the season.

Cheers,

Neil
PokerStars Live Events Specialist

Hi Neil, great thanks for your answer.

It there any satellites for this event? Live or online? I couldn't find any.

Hi Fold,

There won't be any Sats for the 1K Champs during EPT10. We will be doing a full schedule of 1K Champs in non NLH events for EPT11 and we are coordinating with the Sat Team to try and offer seat only Sats to all of them next season. I can't promise anything, but my fingers are crossed.

Cheers,

Neil
PokerStars Live Events Specialist

I'd say about 13.5 BB it's endgame to me, am I wrong? So with how many blinds should I start to push or fold against random opponents?


I tryied to look on the internet about that but I couldn't find anything. Is it the first time there will be an EPT 5 Card Draw tournament in Italy or there were already others? How much the buy in will be? Could you please paste/copy any link about that?


Thanks all of you guys for the answears.

EPT Sanremo
April 17 - Thursday Event 27:
EPT - NL Five Card Single Draw High - Championships - 30,000 Stack - 30 Minute Levels - "6 Handed"

Buyin 990 euro.

http://www.europeanpokertour.com/tournaments/sanremo/

http://media.casinosanremo.it/media/...tv98vdq8dx.xls

A five card draw championship? Wow. Never thought we would see this again.

I've always wanted to visit Italy...



I hope this leads to more worldwide interest and possibly a WSOP event once again.

^^
Thanks Fold&Forget!

You could play WSOP
Jun 19 Event 41: Dealers Choice / Six Handed (3 day event) $1,500
and choose 5CD for one round every time when it's your choice .
So for you at least 1/6 of this turnament would be 5CD


Dealers Choice / Six Handed (3 day event)
NLH; LH; 7-Card Razz; 7-Card St; 7-Card St Hi-Lo; PLO; PLO Hi-Lo, Omaha Hi-Lo; 2-7 TD Lowball
A-5 Triple Draw Lowball, Badugi, Badeucy, Badacy, 2-7 NL Draw Lowball, PLH, 5-Card Draw High

In 2012 I think, EPT also got Five Card Draw Championship, but just got 22/26 Players.

Italy have many persons who like Five Card Draw, so I think this tournament will have a lot more players.

My question is if that tournament will be with with the real rules of Five Card Draw, with antes and with Jack or Better open.

Anyway 1000€ is a lot for my budget, but I would love to play. If any of the 2+2p went to this tornament, please give us some background.

About the BadgerMike "dream", I think that is completly impossible atm, Five Card Draw will never be in the WSOP again.

Hi JF,

We will not be using Jacks or Better, but we will be using antes and blinds.

Regarding the buyin, my fingers are still crossed the Sat guys will come through and let me run some online Seat Only next year! We plan on running all the Champs at 1K next year.

The Champs are definitely in the EPT11 schedules though! Barcelona Schedule is almost confirmed and it has Limit O8, PLO8 and NLO8 Champs for 1K The Draw games will stay in Sanremo for EPT11 as it is one of the few places I can legally play them and supposedly (we'll see with attendance next week?) there used to be a lot of Draw played here.

Cheers,

Neil
PokerStars Live Events Specialist