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Old 02-13-2017, 06:33 AM   #1
Makushimu
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Newbie Triple Draw question

Limit game. Let's say I'm on the big blind holding 456xx, and only small blind raises, so i decide to defend.
SB draws 1, or Pat, and my xx are big.

1) From my small experience - sometimes that 6 get me into trouble (because of str8), so the question is, should I draw 6xx on the first draw, or just xx?
2) If I decide not to draw 6, and after the first draw I get 3456x, should i draw 6x, or just x?

Thanks!
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Old 02-13-2017, 06:42 AM   #2
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

1. Draw to 45.
2. Fold.
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Old 02-13-2017, 07:05 AM   #3
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

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1. Draw to 45.
2. Fold.
This. Also if u really want to draw if villains range contains same type of hands or he is keeping a 9 in it and if you are in big blind you want your cards to be on the left side of your hand meaning that 456KJ can draw slightly better but ur still a underdog but if u are good at choosing resorts were to bluff it is playable. the thing here is that if you in worst case hit a 9 you have a draw that is going to a smoother 9 than villains. If u hit a 8 ur good to but 7 alone and the only low that comes after first is the nightmare meaning that you only have 6 outs left. A 2 will make ur hand "justified" and a 3 gives u a smooth draw to 8 or 9 lo with 7 outs. As you see you are gonna be in spots with practically no outs but still ur catching lowcards so you can theoretically bluff easier than drawing 1 to 456xx and then pat. Drawing to 45xxx is going to put you in better spots but villain already is in one. And again, if villain keeps a 9 on first draw it means that ur 456 is 345 and best way to play 345 is to toss the 5 and draw 3 cards in most situations (unless its like 34455).

Last edited by doylebrunson1337; 02-13-2017 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 02-13-2017, 08:22 AM   #4
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

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1. Draw to 45.
2. Fold.
Sorry my dumb question, but what does it mean to draw to 45? I'm already holding 456xx
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Old 02-13-2017, 08:24 AM   #5
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

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Sorry my dumb question, but what does it mean to draw to 45? I'm already holding 456xx
Keep the 4 and the 5, discard the other three.
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Old 02-13-2017, 08:41 AM   #6
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

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Sorry my dumb question, but what does it mean to draw to 45? I'm already holding 456xx
with 45 u are seeking a lone 2, a lone 9 or a lone 3 when drawing three. If u draw to 456 then the 3 needs to hit together with an 8 or a 9 meaning the chance of that is 1/12 or 1½/12 something like and u get one shot less for the deuce or nine. In the first two draws u have 4/12 chance twice of making a draw that can continue and survive to the last draw by going 45. But in cases where villain keeps nine u can keep the 6 imho (depending on the order of your cards).
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Old 02-13-2017, 09:12 AM   #7
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

Thanks for the input guys, really appreciate it
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Old 02-15-2017, 03:07 PM   #8
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

Is calling and drawing to 543 on the flop really that bad? I know it's not a great draw and the pot is tiny, but having position should make up for that, shouldn't it?

I've also always drawn to 654 there, but I guess that could be wrong!
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:31 AM   #9
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

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Is calling and drawing to 543 on the flop really that bad? I know it's not a great draw and the pot is tiny, but having position should make up for that, shouldn't it?

I've also always drawn to 654 there, but I guess that could be wrong!
Pre draw draw 3 to 345 (ditch the 5 except for if U have 33455 then you discard the 4), and after first draw u draw 2 to 345. imo.
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Old 02-17-2017, 02:47 PM   #10
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

The difference between 543 and 654 is a 5 is a wheel card, 6 is the weakest card below an 8. If opponent is drawing 1 or pat they have a huge range and are often rough. You need to make a hand or a draw or you'll probably need to fold. And i think 543 has slightly more equity than 43, so i'd continue with it.
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Old 02-17-2017, 04:18 PM   #11
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

I don't think my last post was very clear. I meant that I draw at 654 on the first draw, instead of 54.
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Old 02-17-2017, 05:48 PM   #12
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

I would always draw to 456 vs a small blind open. I dunno what these guys are saying. I never know what the one dude is saying though.
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:49 PM   #13
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

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I would always draw to 456 vs a small blind open. I dunno what these guys are saying. I never know what the one dude is saying though.
When you get to be my age, you will mumble a lot too.
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:00 PM   #14
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

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I would always draw to 456 vs a small blind open. I dunno what these guys are saying. I never know what the one dude is saying though.
Yeah agree.
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Old 02-22-2017, 12:38 PM   #15
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

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I would always draw to 456 vs a small blind open. I dunno what these guys are saying. I never know what the one dude is saying though.
Why would you rather draw to 456 than 45?

I would understand the logic to drawing to 456 from the button in a HU duel, but big blind?
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Old 02-22-2017, 02:02 PM   #16
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

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Originally Posted by doylebrunson1337 View Post
Why would you rather draw to 456 than 45?

I would understand the logic to drawing to 456 from the button in a HU duel, but big blind?
In both cases you have position, and drawing rough is less of a concern HU, when the most common hand at showdown is more likely to be a T or 9 than in a multiway pot.
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Old 02-22-2017, 04:01 PM   #17
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

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In both cases you have position, and drawing rough is less of a concern HU, when the most common hand at showdown is more likely to be a T or 9 than in a multiway pot.
If we draw to 456 we want to hit a 2, 8 or a 9 to have a legit draw. If we hit 3 or 7 we end up with 4567x and 3456x but the hands 2456x, 4568x and 4569x has 1/3 more outs.

And drawing two to 456 we only have 46% chance of hitting a 2,8 or 9 while drawing 3 gives us 60% chance of hitting one of those cards and Im not counting 3 or 7 here but with those two included it is still a better hit rate than being 1/3 underdog drawing to 456.

In position we also look for tens and even 456 pairs for a bluff pat (T-low without a pair in it also bluff if we pat after first draw) but OOP villain can be bluff raising a lot in position putting us in bad spots where we lose minimum 3 bets and even worse 6 bets.

Also if it is a ring game and small blind opens then small blind is probably going to hit lowcards since the earlier 4 that folded pre indicates there is going to rain lowcards so even there (if we now play this hand) we are just under 1/3 underdog.

I'd say to save those hands in a HU duel (2players in the ring) from the button and decide what to draw depending on if BB draws more than 1 card or not and just fold it in BB. Always fold in a ring game but if limped to and we are forced to play I'd say still better to drop the 6 cuz we only have 1/12 equity of hitting a made hand drawing two.
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Old 02-22-2017, 06:10 PM   #18
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

The situation was folded to small blind who raises. So we are in position heads up. Every 2,8,9 you catch you are going to wish you had the 6 back.
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Old 02-22-2017, 06:38 PM   #19
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

You're paying to draw at 4569 against an SB who raised and drew 1 or was pat? Or even 4568?

If SB raises and draws 2 I see more sense in keeping the 6, but that's not what OP says.
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Old 02-22-2017, 07:56 PM   #20
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

Small blinds opening 4 card range should be even wider and uglier than the hands you mention
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Old 02-22-2017, 08:05 PM   #21
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

Sure, the bottom of it is. Against 9xxx and better and a half-dozen rough tens, plus a draw, you're still deeply hosed.
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Old 02-22-2017, 08:30 PM   #22
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

Disagree on deeply hosed. Agree we aren't in a great spot. But we are getting a price and have position.
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Old 02-22-2017, 10:26 PM   #23
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

SB opens 77322, you defend 456. They draw 2 and check, you make 9654 and bet, they call and draw 2. You draw 1, they check, you bet, they fold.
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Old 02-22-2017, 11:00 PM   #24
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

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SB opens 77322, you defend 456. They draw 2 and check, you make 9654 and bet, they call and draw 2. You draw 1, they check, you bet, they fold.
But again, we are explicitly told that SB doesn't draw 2. This is a perfectly reasonable play if they do.
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Old 02-23-2017, 12:59 AM   #25
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Re: Newbie Triple Draw question

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But again, we are explicitly told that SB doesn't draw 2. This is a perfectly reasonable play if they do.
Sorry, you're right, I forgot that. But still the converse is true, when drawing 3 we are drawing 3 or 2 on second draw a lot and often can't even call again. I'm just a believer in making a hand we can showdown HU, and not worried about the few times we are drawing dead.
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