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Old 01-29-2017, 05:11 PM   #1
zoogenhiem
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Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

I was watching Talonchick play the $700 8game TCOOP event this morning, and this was an interesting hand that happened on her table in 2-7 triple draw still pretty early on, so no icm. Limits were 1200/2400.

Cutoff raises nearly all-in (leaves 400 chips behind), button 3bets, Talon mucks T9832 in the sb (noting that she'd never ever fold this hand in a cash game intending to draw 2 of course), then the big blind flat calls, and the cutoff calls all-in.

1st draw: 2/1/2

Big blind bets, button calls.

2nd draw: 1/0/1

Big blind bets, button calls

3rd draw: 1/0/0

Big blind bets, button folds leaving himself with 2000 chips behind (<1BB).

Big blind shows down J5432 and wins side pot
Cutoff shows down 87532 and wins main pot
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:17 PM   #2
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

Ok so first question is whether Talon was warranted to muck pre and if cold calling in a cash game is also reasonable. Note she started the hand with about 13k chips IIRC, a bit more than starting stack.

When I was watching the hand live, I thought that the big blind's bet would basically only be value bets because he'd think that the button is never folding for less than a big bet after the draw went 1/0. So I thought a fold was reasonable. But then I was shocked to see J5432.

What sort of hands do we expect the button to have here? I know a made jack is a favorite against a one-card draw but a dog to two players with one-card draws. When there's a juicy side pot, how much attention should be paid to winning the side pot and thus playing your draws as if HU versus trying to win three ways.

Going to the river, there was about 10k in the main and 10k in the side, so too much in the main to just ignore but enough in side to make it very relevant. So should the button be patting a jack as a favorite for the main pot? What about a ten or a nine? The cutoff probably has at worst a medium 9.

As we saw from the showdown, mucking river in the button's position was so exploitable. But I guess he thought that the big blind thought what I said above, in a leveling war here.

I'd love to see more experienced players than I discuss the river in this hand.
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:30 PM   #3
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

You're pretty much on the right track. Whether Button should draw depends a lot on how rough he is - If he has something like T8763, the chance he's drawing dead for the main pot is high enough that he should pat for the side. It's hard to imagine patting a jack being correct unless he 3bet something like 753 hoping to isolate, though. I think it's very likely he folded the best hand.

Talon's fold should be fine, depending on how much Button likes to make that sort of move. It would be a bad fold against me, but against most players it's good.
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Old 01-29-2017, 06:27 PM   #4
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

Yeah I think Talon's fold was standard based on my experience but it must have only barely been a fold since she said it was a flat in a cash game situation. I was mainly wondering if that last part of the statement was close -- is it a flat in a cash game (or if she were deeperstacked?)?
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Old 01-29-2017, 10:56 PM   #5
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

What hand worse than 832 is button isolating against?
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:17 PM   #6
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

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Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Yeah I think Talon's fold was standard based on my experience but it must have only barely been a fold since she said it was a flat in a cash game situation. I was mainly wondering if that last part of the statement was close -- is it a flat in a cash game (or if she were deeperstacked?)?
It's a flat given the Cutoff's stack size. I'd tend to fold against a CO who could fourbet.

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What hand worse than 832 is button isolating against?
Well, I'm isolating here with 7xx3, 8x3, a bunch of pat nines, probably 2x, maybe some 9xx4. But I'm a bit of a nut.
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Old 01-30-2017, 02:38 AM   #7
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

Or are you asking about CO's range? As Button you can play a lot of hands against a standard open range here because you're getting better than 3:2 in position. And CO should be a bit looser than standard given his stack.
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Old 01-30-2017, 11:08 AM   #8
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

In a cash game I usually fold from the SB with that type of hand, but against someone like Tapirboy (based on his post), I would call.

Are hands that can make a wheel like 532 and 742 no-brainer calls?
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Old 01-30-2017, 12:33 PM   #9
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

For the purpose of cash game discussion, we probably have to figure the cutoff has a regular stack. Rarely in a cash game is someone starting a hand with 1.2 big bets.

Remember we don't have to be ahead of the buttons range, just getting the right price. And maybe if we're really good at the game, then we have some implied odds. But out of position facing a 3bet with a draw 2 not even to the nuts, just feels like a muck to me. And as someone else mentioned, if the CO were a full stack, then we'd have to be worried about a CO 4bet too should we cold call the 3bet.

In a cash game where the CO has a full stack, if we were to play this hand, would it be better to come in for a 4bet rather than a cold call to try to push the CO out? People obviously never fold for one bet more but maybe someone out of position in the hand will fold for 2 bets more.
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Old 01-30-2017, 01:01 PM   #10
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

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It's a flat given the Cutoff's stack size. I'd tend to fold against a CO who could fourbet.


Well, I'm isolating here with 7xx3, 8x3, a bunch of pat nines, probably 2x, maybe some 9xx4. But I'm a bit of a nut.
You are OOP and a dog to most of those hands (7xx3, pat nines, and all of the real hands that button wakes up with like 732, 8432, etc).

Plus you are fighting over a dry side pot.

In a cash game you have the problem of it being back capped, and some RIO.
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Old 01-30-2017, 02:24 PM   #11
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

Can someone more knowledgeable about this game than I chime in about the river? That was what caught my eye about this hand. What do we think the button folded, what do we think of the big blind's bold bluff, and how much do we think the button went on life tilt after seeing a J get shown down (I wonder if the fact that the button would get to see the big blind's hand regardless at show down due to the all in made him marginally more likely to fold)?
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:21 PM   #12
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

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In a cash game I usually fold from the SB with that type of hand, but against someone like Tapirboy (based on his post), I would call.

Are hands that can make a wheel like 532 and 742 no-brainer calls?
235 type of hands usually not good when there is 3 players in the pot before its your turn. 7 is the second most important card since there only is 8 cards that are top-cards (7s and 8s) the rest between them and the deuce are easier to hit in multiways.

I think big blind made a good bet there even DN said earlier (did not actually say but he did play that way) to be aggressive when there is a side pot with one of three is all -in. Villain will fold all made tens a lot of times there. DN made a bet with T-low and the other guy that was not all-in was thinking of calling for a couple of minutes and folded later on. It was pretty much an ICM-fold. He probably had a 97 without a 2 in his hand when he folded to BB bet. It is important to keep the short stacks short bcuz when they double up it is going to take long time before any1 busts out just as OP said Talon folded a 2card draw to 8 perfect. Button wanted the sidepot cuz his chances was slim with a draw without a 2.

Last edited by doylebrunson1337; 01-30-2017 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 02-03-2017, 09:55 AM   #13
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

Tip: Don't watch Talonchick play. Unless you want to get dumber.

And obviously it's a spewy play from the big blind, and kinda stupid, after all in pats twice and when the side pot is not big enough to warrant it.
Although bb's turn bet is actually maybe worse than his river bet.
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Old 02-03-2017, 01:21 PM   #14
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

Haha thank you hero value I was about to say pretty much all that.
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:15 PM   #15
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

Why shouldn't the bb be betting for value on the turn with the nut draw 5432? As for the river bet, it's certainly bold. Maybe I'm being results oriented in calling it impressive since it it worked, but could you please articulate why it's spewy? The side pot was just as big as the main pot on the river (10k and 10k).
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Old 02-03-2017, 08:39 PM   #16
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

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Why shouldn't the bb be betting for value on the turn with the nut draw 5432? As for the river bet, it's certainly bold. Maybe I'm being results oriented in calling it impressive since it it worked, but could you please articulate why it's spewy? The side pot was just as big as the main pot on the river (10k and 10k).
It's a gut shot, the worst nut draw there is. If button is pat he's in terrible shape, and if button raises BB has to put in 2 bets in terrible shape. And it's a small side pot at that time.

Turn is closer to a check/fold.
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Old 02-04-2017, 12:08 PM   #17
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

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Why shouldn't the bb be betting for value on the turn with the nut draw 5432? As for the river bet, it's certainly bold. Maybe I'm being results oriented in calling it impressive since it it worked, but could you please articulate why it's spewy? The side pot was just as big as the main pot on the river (10k and 10k).
The turnbet is bad bcuz in case of being just called BB is going to have to pay another bet if the other player hits.
There is a whole lot of difference depending on where player gets busted in the FT so BBs bluff was that he was betting a lot of money. I mean it would be stupid to make that bet vs a very rich poker player or a super pro like Jason Mercier but against a standard REG that bet is not to bad even if its bad.

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Tip: Don't watch Talonchick play. Unless you want to get dumber.

And obviously it's a spewy play from the big blind, and kinda stupid, after all in pats twice and when the side pot is not big enough to warrant it.
Although bb's turn bet is actually maybe worse than his river bet.
If BB did not spew turn and then bluff at river would that be justified?
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Old 02-06-2017, 04:19 AM   #18
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

bang bang experts itt being kinda tough on the young lady who twitches her sessions and is growing the game (in more ways than one haha).

TC plays deuce post like an ABC lag who is too showdown bound, not very tricky, and bluffs/snows w the wrong hands. But she can be tight pre, which is good in a vacuum, bc she is better at other games.

Would be helpful to know how many big bets TC had, but w/o ICM implications yet, I'd cc from SB and draw 2. We have a smooth draw and don't need to rely on catching any 2s or 3s in a MW pot when they'd mostly be in our opponents' hands.
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Old 02-06-2017, 06:32 AM   #19
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

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TC plays deuce post like an ABC lag who is too showdown bound, not very tricky, and bluffs/snows w the wrong hands.
Are there any videos I can watch of this person? Now I'm kind of curious. I'm not going to try to find her live on Twitch though.
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Old 02-06-2017, 10:28 AM   #20
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

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Are there any videos I can watch of this person? Now I'm kind of curious. I'm not going to try to find her live on Twitch though.
You can see the recorded VODs (video on demand) on Twitch, there's prob YouTube content of her too. Or you can just tune in live sometimes, she streams many hours per week.
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Old 02-08-2017, 05:33 AM   #21
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

Let's just say that I've played a lot with Talon, in 8-game. And she's basically very bad at every game. Genuinely a fish.

I'm not necessarily saying that she shouldn't stream, or that she may or may not be entertaining, but as far as strategy, don't watch her if you're past beginner level.
(I don't watch her. partly because she has no poker ethics, but I have tried to watch a bit in the past though.)

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It's a gut shot, the worst nut draw there is. If button is pat he's in terrible shape, and if button raises BB has to put in 2 bets in terrible shape. And it's a small side pot at that time.
Turn is closer to a check/fold.
Ftr, 3457 would be the worst nut draw.

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Haha thank you hero value I was about to say pretty much all that.
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Old 02-08-2017, 08:39 AM   #22
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

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I'm not necessarily saying that she shouldn't stream, or that she may or may not be entertaining, but as far as strategy, don't watch her if you're past beginner level.
I found a video and watched enough that this seems accurate to me. Lots of first-level thinking and following received wisdom, no real understanding of what she's doing, at least inasmuch as she's communicating to the viewers.

Unfortunately there wasn't enough 2-7 for me to fully judge Macau's estimation of her play. Tight pre and ABC LAG post seem accurate. She makes LAG mistakes I haven't made since the UB days.
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Old 02-08-2017, 08:31 PM   #23
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

I couldn't watch enough of her videos to have an opinion either way, other than her videos are nearly unwatchable.
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Old 02-08-2017, 10:35 PM   #24
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

Well fwiw she's by far and away doing the most to introduce new players to mixed games, perhaps second only to Jason Somerville, if even.
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:10 PM   #25
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Re: Interesting 2-7TD hand from $700 8game TCOOP

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Well fwiw she's by far and away doing the most to introduce new players to mixed games, perhaps second only to Jason Somerville, if even.
Yea, part of my problem is I'm not her target audience so it's too basic for me. But her presentation is also scattered, and her delivery uneven. Though again that's not atypical of poker videos, no one spends time prepping scripts and editing their videos.
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