Hello
Not too sure what my River plan supposed to be:
check/fold?
check/call?
bet/fold?
bet/call?

beware the feral cow packs. they hunger.
PokerStars Limit Badugi $0.25/$0.50 - 8 players

SB: $7.03
BB: $20.53
UTG: $6.81
UTG+1: $10.18
MP: $11.64 (Hero)
HJ: $19.62
CO: $20.54
Button: $13.28

Dealing Hands: ($0.35) (8 players)
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, HJ folds, CO raises to $0.75, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1, CO calls $0.25

First Draw: ($2.35) (2 players)
Hero stands, CO discards 1,

Hero bets $0.25, CO calls $0.25

Second Draw: ($2.85) (2 players)
Hero stands, CO discards 1,

Hero bets $0.50, CO calls $0.50

Third Draw: ($3.85) (2 players)
Hero stands, CO discards 1,


Hero???

Bet/call.

What I really want to do is check/call to pick off a possible bluff, but I bet/call because I don't want Villain to know I'm standing pat with a ten. I hope Villain folds so that I don't have to show my hand. And if Villain raises, he has to show first and then I quickly muck.

It should be clear that I don't play this game much.

Buzz

[edit]Please see four posts down. (I changed my mind after being informed Villain could see my cards anyhow. [/edit]

Not sure if the last part in your answer is serious or not. 267T is a pretty strong prepat badugi hand, but its not strong enough to bet call river. Check call river, you are beating some hands who bet for value and bluffs. If you have weak Qs or strong kings, you can start thinking about folding.

Thinking out loud here.

PF:
I'm ditching any Q badugi preflop in this position. It's important that your entire 4b-pat range here isn't entirely badugis. 456r type hands are good candidates to turn into a 4b snow bluff from the get-go. Another candidate might be 2h3h4h5h, assuming you open that to snow.

River:
Depends if you are capable of snowing PF, and if villain knows this. His range will be 20% badugis evenly distributed from 5-K, 80% tris. Our range is will be a lot of badugis bunched towards J/T/9, with some random snows. I think this is a spot where we're supposed to be check-deciding a lot, and betting a polarized range.

thanks guys

but if he opens the Hand Replayer then he can see your mucked cards anyway

Ah.

Understand that I haven't played much on-line poker and it has been a while since I played on-line (before black Friday).

In that case, I would check/call.

Buzz

River is a clear bet imo. You got reraised by what should be a strong tri. You will get calls by weaker badugis and strong tris all day on the river.

As far as whether or not it is a bet/call or bet/fold....pot odds are huge, but your chances of having the best hand are small. Whatever you do can't really be a mistake either way. So it's opponent and image dependent.

Check/call seems bad as the money will usually only go in when you are beat. Maybe he will bet some worst tens and jacks. But otherwise you let him off the hook when he has a hand that he would call with but certainly will not bet.

Have to disagree. I don't see the purpose in a 4b snow right from the get go.

Why would you snow 456r right from the start? Call the 3b. Take a card. Try and make the badugi. If you miss the 1st draw, you can put a snow operation into place then if you choose.

Not only are you giving yourself a chance to make a hand but you are representing a stronger badugi. The average pat badugi pre is a good queen. The average drawn one is an 8 or a 9. And this doesn't even account for the times that you got 3bet by a badugi that is not folding. When you pat OOP you just gave up a chance to outdraw him.

Of course if you lop off the unprofitable branch of 4betting snow it would in theory change how you play the river. But practically, I wouldn't. Pot is huge at the end and they can't help themselves.

man, good points there i think do you play online? if yes, what stakes?

me? Yes, online on Seals With Clubs. The site of future champions lol

Buzz why would you not want him to know you pat s ten here when 100% of people cap and pat a ten here?

These 'average hands' are just wrong. The average pat badugi is a Q. But not all Q badugis will/should iso raise. Putting an iso-raise on 8hi or 9hi tri is whack. I'd put him on on a strong 6hi tri at worst.

I don't care about repping a stronger badugi. I care about better repping a badugi. If you draw one then snow, villain will be very suspicious knowing that you should only make a badugi ~20% of the time. If you pat pre, there are only so many non-badugi hands you can have in your range.

I weigh FE much higher than outdraw equity. If you draw one then pat, tris will look you up a lot lot more. That's bad. Moreover, something like 654 will always be dominated by villain's hand. If I had something like A37/A47, I'd be willing to draw since I'd have some outs at a better tri.

I always prefer my opponents not get any insight into how I'm playing.

Buzz

I'm not sure what you are saying exactly but let's take it one a time. As presented in the OP you raise, and get 3 bet. Everyone folds and it is back to you. It is headsup so I don't know why you are talking about an iso-raise.

You should be 4 betting all badugis otherwise your hand is face up. The average pre pat badugi is a good queen. But when you draw one 1 to a good tri and make it half the time it will be an 8 or better. So the average hands I presented are correct.

You are dealt a badugi preflop only around 6% so I don't know why that is so believeable while a villain would never believe a 20% chance came in.

You have more FE snowing after drawing 1 than snowing after 4 betting and patting pre. (At least someone aware like myself)
1. In the first case, the pot is smaller due to no 3 bet and the hand range represented is bigger
2. In the second case the pot is bloated due to the 4 bet and the hand range represented is weaker

Where did I say to put an iso raise with an 8 or 9 hi tri?

But they got information similar to that if they saw you raise AA23ds in O8b.

If you mean by iso-raise an open raise, then yes I concede that from MP it is fine to fold bad kings and queens, then you would ratchet the average hand down to a good jack or a bad ten.

But that is still a worse hand distribution than one that is represented after drawing one and staying pat

Rightly or wrongly, when playing Omaha-8, I prefer to keep the pot initially small and then use card reading skill to out play opponents on later rounds.

Badugi is not, for me, the same as Omaha-8.

When playing Omaha-8, I think before the flop, on betting round #1, I can raise, or not, with any playable starting hand (and some hands that would generally be considered not very playable). Usually I don't raise on betting round #1 when playing Omaha-8... but that depends on how my opponents are playing... the general idea is to always adapt to my opponents when playing Omaha-8.

I'm more opponent oriented than card oriented... at least that's the idea. I believe whether or not to raise on betting round number 1 in Omaha-8 is more dependent on how your opponents are likely to react to the raise (or lack of raise) than on the particular cards you hold. I realize that's vague, but that's how I play Omaha-8... I'm as likely to raise before the flop with AQ43 as with (A3)(A2), although I realize (A3)(A2) is clearly a better starting hand than AQ43. (Cards of the same suit are enclosed in parentheses).

Thus I might or might not make a pre-flop raise with (A3)(A2) in Omaha-8.

In any poker game, I prefer opponents not gain insight into how I play by seeing my cards... if I have to show them, then I show them... but if I can avoid showing my cards, I prefer to avoid showing them.

Just my style.

Buzz

Apologies. You wrote 'average drawn one' is 8 or 9 hi. I took this to mean the average villain hand when 'drawing one' is 8 or 9 hi tri, which is obviously whack.

Disagree on your FE assessment.

PF, I count ~10000 Jhi badugi combos, and ~20000 tri combos that I would open in this position. It is common for most tris to draw one => the vast majority of the time we pat pre, it will be a real badugi. Even if we decided to turn ALL of our tris into pat bluffs, we'd have 33% badugis. If we draw on 19000 of our tri combos and snow 1000 of them (5%), we'd be at 90% badugis, 10% 'random snows'.

If you draw 1 then snow, Villain should expect us to only make it ~20% of the time. This is also a much more common spot to try to snow. Of the 80% of the time you miss, he will expect you to be snowing a good chunk of them. If you snow 5% of the time, you'd be at 80% badugis, 20% snows.

Strengthening the range of badugis you have isn't as important as strengthening the probability of an actual badugi in your hand. That is where the FE comes from.

Of course, drawing gives you some chance at outdrawing him. That pads your equity to make up for lost FE.

Still, I like having a PF snow range. This way he actually has to pay you off sometimes with a tri OTR. And if we are going to have this in our range, 456r is the best candidate

If you want to argue that you can have zero PF snows in this spot and still get called by bad players 'because the pot is big', then that is a sensible exploitative argument. I'd probably go the other way. Add a lot MORE PF snows, and expect players to overfold OTR. Depend on stakes and your table image.

Imo badugi is a weird game. By patting right away you are weakening your range. If I'm sitting there in position who 3 bet you with a good tri, I'm thinking about possibly raising somewhere along the way even if I have not made my hand. That is bad news for your snows. And this is against opponents who I feel don't have many or no snows.

I guess I disagree that they don't believe you that you have a badugi when you stay pat after a draw. It is only 20%. And some players probably don't even know it is that low. It's harder to make a badugi then some realize. This can easily come into play in a mixed game.

Some PF snows are ok. 4 of a suit is fine as you cannot make a badugi anyway. I don't like it though with hands that can make a very good badugi. And especially OOP.

456r OOP, I don't like. Like I said if you were 3B by a badugi, you lost one chance to the badugi. But you can also reduce your incomplete too. At least if you had the 456r in position you can always abort the play and draw if he stays pat. If he didn't C/R you are drawing live.

So OOP think it's fine with the suited hand if you were in CO and got popped by button. IP maybe you can take it further and do three card 7s, 8s or 9s you may have opened on the button. I still think waiting until after the 1st draw is better. But maybe throw some PF ones in there too to mix it up.

Those are my thoughts. Don't think we are that far off though. But in theory it should impact the river. But as I mentioned before don't think it impacts them as much as it should.

Yes, part of my argument.

Also, there is the fact that the chance of making a badugi are around 50%. Not only may they make the badugi but in tougher games you may face a bluff raise along the way vs a good tri.

If it is just the two of you, the blind money is your overlay. But the success rate may be lower than 45%.

ok ok, you have AA23. Final board is AA68J. Someone bets the river and you raise. That's similar to the info you gave them here....

This caught my attention.
Should villain be bluff raising with a 'good tri' (A23, a24), or with their bad tris? I would think their bad ones. A23 is the ultimate call-down UI bluff catcher. I don't see much reason to raise with it.

Also not that worried about being bluffed because 456 is never ahead of anything in villain's range. If you're worried about villain playing back at us, well, good players will do this regardless.

You make a good point about OOP and IP dynamics, but I think its still important to have a sizeable pat-snow range.

nah, I definitely bluff raise with the good tris. Part of the reason is to get them to break. And when they break I want to have the best tri.

You are putting them on a badugi and you are armed with the knowledge that the average pre pat badugi is not that strong. So you need to make life difficult sometimes for them. Mix in raises that are not done solely when you make your hand.

Back to the 456, I will end with this. You can have your cake and eat it too. I think both your fold equity and straight win equity are both higher under the scenario where you choose to snow after drawing 1 card the first round as opposed to snowing initially. But sounds like we may never reach consensus...

It will happen that sometimes I'll have to show my hand, thus giving information to my opponents. And when that happens, so be it.

But if I can subtly avoid showing my hand (and thus giving information to my opponents), I prefer to do so.

Buzz