This is a resurrection of the old Misplayed-On-Every-Street threads. Hand was played this summer in Vegas.

It was 5- or 6-handed.

Hero is in the BB and dealt A238T. Hero has played pot-limit badacey and fixed-limit lowball, but has little fixed-limit triple-draw experience, although he thinks it is an interesting format. Hero played this on autopilot and suspects his autopilot is broken.

UTG is a household name (if your household is weird enough) NLHE tourney player.

UTG limps. Folded to button who also limps. Button is a guy in his 60's with a reputation for being smart, but I don't think has played much since the internet went busto. He said he had only played badacey a few times.

SB folds.

Hero?

I would raise and draw 2.

Raise draw 2 OOP is pretty standard. Heads up maybe you can draw 1, but personally I'm drawing 2 even in position I think. 8 low is like a 10 in 2-7, which most people don't pat with pre.

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An 8 low in badacey will almost never scoop the A-5, though a 3-2-1 tri might actually take the badugi, so you're kind of negative freerolling yourself by not drawing. Especially with such a pure draw.

An 8 low is more likely to win half in badacey than it is to scoop in A-5 so I don't think it's very accurate to say an 8 low never scoops the low portion. That said when you start with a premium like A23 it's pretty silly to keep the 8.

So what happened next?

I'm not saying to keep it, but having 8 badugi I think is worth more than people are giving it credit for. Especially when we brick out and lmgdg scooped by random 9/9 hands or more common 3 card/4 card low draw that backdoor the paint badugis and scoop when we pair

I raised. This is a rote play from my limit lowball days when I didn't think it ever wise to let people limp in. I'm announcing that there won't be limping if I'm playing -- it's just too much like giving them a freeroll on the implied odds. On reflection, I don't see the wisdom of this. There may be reasons to raise here, but that's not one of them.

And as another rote play, when I play from the blinds I generally raise because I don't like being OOP and I think being aggressive creates more opportunities later in the hand.

Lastly, the hold 'em player on my left's limp concerns me. Hold 'em players like to raise and if he is slow-playing a monster, I want to give him an opportunity to sell out his hand.

So anyway, I raise and it goes call call and it's my turn to draw.

I keep the 8 badugi and draw one. Against two players going to showdown, an 8 might be good but what I really would want is something like a 6. But I don't plan to go to showdown. The fact that they merely called my raise has encouraged me to believe that I can blow them off the pot after the draw.

In hindsight, this seems like pretty lame thinking: a) "Blow off the pot" for a small bet really isn't a solid fixed-limit concept; b) I'm relying on them thinking my 1-card draw means a good badugi with a freeroll when, b.1) there's no reason to believe they would think that, and b.2) if they did, there is no knowing what they consider a "good" badugi. They might think I have a Queen and they can hit a Jack.

The draws go 1, 2, 2 and I'm liking it. I pitched the Ten and drew a Jack, but against two 2-card draws I still feel like the Alpha Donk, so I fire $40 at the $260 pot expecting to take it down, and it goes call call.

So now what do I do?

Big bet players playing limit are funny
There is like a 1% chance you take it down after the first draw, you are betting purely for value (I would have drawn two and still bet unimproved here).

Just one point I want to make right now, if you have a close decision between raising or checking, being OOP argues in favor of checking and playing a smaller pot. You want to bloat pots when you have position. That said A23 is too strong not to raise no matter your position.

This.

My idea of heaven is to play limit with big-bet players, no-limit with limit players, and pot-limit with either.

Note that raising pre- *hurt* my chances of taking it down by enlarging the pot, and that by only drawing 1, I impaired the value of the 1-2-3 while at the same time destroying the chance to make a big hand.

Ok I do agree that 8 low will hold up enough as to be worth thinking about for a couple secs, esp given the "hope he's going the either way" quick pats and dirty calls that are made on the river in split pot games.

OP your turn bet is mandatory I think and now you just draw 1 and either x/c or b/c the river, depending on what you pull and the previous action. I would prob lead improvement and not x/r anything.

I would raise and draw two pre, being smooth on the badugi side allows you to exert much more pressure later in the hand than having a modest complete lowball hand like an Eight does.

Nobody is folding the flop, basically ever, but player dependent you could plan to draw one, pat the flop and snow. If you're lucky and everybody is still drawing two on the turn you could get it through there, but all the split-pot draw games are showdown heavy, so you'd have to pick your spots to do it, and it sounds like you don't know these players that well.

The badugi protects your snow somewhat, since you'll often be good for that half, but you'd be snowing to try to steal the other half of a pot, and A23 has so much potential that I prefer to break down to that and go from there without trying to get fancy.

As played lead the flop and I guess draw one again. If they both draw two I would have to consider patting everything and firing the turn, but the tendency for people to get stubborn is still a concern.

What I *should* do is stop and think. Of course, I didn't.

I've got two people drawing two cards against me. What's the probability they are drawing to an eight or worse?

Zero.

What's the probability they haven't hit something?

Let's do some at-the-table back-of-the-envelope calculations. For low we'll say they are drawing 2 cards to make a 7. From their perspective, they have 16 outs out of 47 unknowns, so an opponent will miss with a 1-card draw ~2/3; miss with both draws ~4/9. Two opponents will miss both draws ~16/81.

So I am ahead with my low draw only ~ 20% of the time.

But I've gotta be ahead with my badugi, right?

Using at-the-table back-of-the-envelope (and this time, quick-like-a-bunny) calculations, assuming at least one opponent has hit a better low draw 80% of the time, and assuming that both opponents were drawing to badugis (can we assume this? No idea, but it seems reasonable), then at least one opponent has hit a badugi ~20% of the time. (Since 1/4 of their outs gave them badugis.)

I'm out of position. I'm against two opponents. I've got no idea what they have. There are two more draws remaining. I'm probably behind on the A-5 side. There are two more betting rounds -- this time with big bets. I've pretty much screwed the pooch here.

I think a case can be made for breaking my 8-badugi and drawing two cards:

1. It gives me a chance to hit a big hand. I'm playing/drawing to mediocrity
here; and

2. It will make the hand much easier to play -- I'll know whether I have a hand or not; and

3. Drawing one is not necessarily wrong, but if I'm not sure what to do here, my bafflement will only increase on later rounds if I don't get lucky and hit a better badugi.


Anyway, I discard the Jack and draw a Queen. Both opponents draw one. I get a sinking feeling as it dawns on me that I didn't plan very well.

Hero(?) should...?

Raise/draw 2. I don't think it's close

As played bet...you are the only player with a badugi, but is's very vulnerable (that's why should draw 2 from the start)

To close this out...

I check; utg checks; button bets; utg raises; button folds; I call.

I toss the Queen and get a nine. UTG pats.

Check/bet/call.

I get shown 66.

Raise and Draw 1. Keep the 8 Badugi and hope to make an 8 low. 8 are not that good in this game but you have a two way hand with a few limpers. You have scoop potential plus your describing your opponents as not that familiar with this game.

Also it looks much stronger drawing 1 OOP than drawing 2.

One last thing, I Raise and draw 1 OOP even if I catch another T I would pat and bet out on both remaining draws. Especially if this is early in the game. Not because I believe anyone will fold but because there is a good possibility that they may break their 8 or 9 low made hands.
They saw you draw 1 OOP first draw then go pat pat on the second and third draws. They will assume your pretty strong here. So they may be breaking some winnable low hands. Even if you loose you show your hand face up and probably receive some good action for the rest of the night.