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Draw and Other Poker Discussion of poker games not covered elsewhere (e.g. badugi, draw, triple-draw, pineapple)

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Old 01-09-2017, 09:52 AM   #1
Smarty 2.0
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Badugi Question

High stakes badugi game and no reads on the villains.

V1 raises in EP, V2 cold calls in MP, I defend the BB with 865. (Is this a fold?)

First Draw: 1:1:1

I catch the 2 and check, V1 bets, V2 calls, I c/r, V1 calls, V2 calls.

Second Draw: 0:1:1

I bet, V1 calls, V2 calls.

Third Draw: 0:1:1

And now I...?
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:50 AM   #2
Tapirboy
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Re: Badugi Question

Bet-call.
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:56 PM   #3
etm.
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Re: Badugi Question

Seems pretty close between checking and betting since you're almost never snowing in a spot like this so you shouldn't be getting looked up by many worse hands if you bet. People don't really bluff raise or raise worse for value in live poker so bet/calling seems a little spewy if you're playing live. Checking might induce a bluff slightly more often or worse hand to value bet so I think I lean that way but if I have 84 I'm probably betting, and if it's an online game I'm bet/calling.

Preflop looks fine since drawing two doesn't help you much, I would draw two with A28 or A38 though in a three way pot.
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Old 01-09-2017, 09:26 PM   #4
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Re: Badugi Question

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Originally Posted by Tapirboy View Post
Bet-call.
Yeah this
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Old 01-14-2017, 10:49 AM   #5
Codfish60
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Re: Badugi Question

What would be the reasoning for bet/calling? Surely you don't get bluff raised often when you pat 2nd draw in 3-way pot, or get raised by worse than an 86? I'm still learning the game though so I don't have a clue

Edit: Wait, is it just because we'd be folding too often?

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Old 01-14-2017, 11:00 AM   #6
DeathDonkey
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Re: Badugi Question

Yes basically I have no idea how often some random dude may bluff raise or mistakenly value raise a 9 but you can find out safely by bet calling
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Old 01-14-2017, 11:11 AM   #7
Codfish60
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Re: Badugi Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
Yes basically I have no idea how often some random dude may bluff raise or mistakenly value raise a 9 but you can find out safely by bet calling
Ahh yeah thanks, that makes sense. The price we're getting is too good I suppose.

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Old 01-14-2017, 05:28 PM   #8
RolldUpTrips
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Re: Badugi Question

Given that we will never be viewed as snowing in this spot. i wonder if a ch/c might be better. It gives villains a chance to bluff (although they will do so very rarely) and value-cut themselves with a 9, or, for some people, even a 10. It also protects our checking range from being value bet as thinly and bluffed as often in the future. It would seem that it polarizes our betting range too much not to include this hand, but I can't imagine we're snowing often enough to really worry about that.
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Old 01-14-2017, 07:26 PM   #9
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Re: Badugi Question

I would prefer bet fold to check call honestly. We collect a bet from multiple hands that will check back that we beat. And it's not a horrible snow spot on first draw.
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Old 01-15-2017, 01:53 AM   #10
Happyclam1
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Re: Badugi Question

It's for sure a bet/call. If you even consider check/calling there please come play with me. Your game needs to be balanced enough with bluffs to where this is an insta bet. Also I agree with death donkey with bet/fold>check/call
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Old 01-18-2017, 04:26 PM   #11
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Re: Badugi Question

I defend this and c/r flop as you did.

OTR, recall that you patted early from a defense, that's very often a weak badugi, and as noted is a decent snow spot if you are into that. If I were a villain in position and I made a good 9 I would at least consider value raising. I would raise an 87 often. That alone makes it a bet/call because you beat some hands that would raise legitimately.
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Old 01-20-2017, 02:28 AM   #12
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Re: Badugi Question

Splitting your 1 cd range into 3! and calls indicates you're starting w a rougher tri here, so the nuttier combos are discounted/removed from your range, which could lead villain(s) to raise lighter on the river than they should for value, or to be more apt to bluff-raise at some point in the hand. It's the same reason you get to x/r flop w/o having to worry too much if it will check through.

Is this a live HS badugi-only game? Sounds pretty rare. I first played badugi online, where the game seems to play laggier and trickier than live games (as do most forms of poker I guess). When I started to play live badugi (always in a mix), I was surprised at the strength of hands people checked back OTR - like 10 badugi after the 3rd draw goes 1:1. Or declining to raise A347 "bc the guy was already pat and he bet into me." I lit more than a few bets on fire value-owning myself bc I didn't adjust from the 20 something German pro online to playing with the 55 yr old lawyer in a live mix game. OL, after patting pre, I'm usually getting xr (correctly) by 9s and 10s on the flop or turn.
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Old 01-29-2017, 02:50 PM   #13
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Re: Badugi Question

When I think about this situation, I think in terms of Stud Hi and going into the river with the best hand against two villians who are obviously drawing to beat me and I don't improve. YOU CHECK and CALL(or fold if there is a call in front of us). Betting has negative EV. The only hands that call us usually beat us, and if raised we have lost two bets if we call. Nobody is bluff raising here, or ill say very very few will do this, because you are almost certain to crying call. The situation changes if our hand in this situation was much better, only then you bet with the intention to get 3 bets out of villians, or check to induce a bluff and then raise. We get caught up in these situations sometimes and just bet with the hopes that we still have the best hand and get called by a 3 card badugi or a monkey dangler badugi. All in all this is poker 101 stuff, but super important.
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:19 PM   #14
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Re: Badugi Question

It is poker 101 but everything else you said is wrong. In stud hi vs an obvious draw a check may be correct because they will have a polarized range. In badugi that isn't true at all.
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:36 PM   #15
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Re: Badugi Question

I recommend not reasoning in draw games by analogy to non-draw games. Your opponents' ability to see some of your cards is really important.
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Old 01-30-2017, 09:16 PM   #16
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Re: Badugi Question

Ok, I hear you, but two villians drawing one to beat hero feels kind of like the same thing. But I guess you will get bad calls.....maybe. Ill take your word for it. I'm not as read in draw games.
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Old 03-19-2017, 03:32 PM   #17
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Re: Badugi Question

bet-call might be the theoretically optimal play but you need to make a couple assumptions for it to be correct...

#1: villains think you are capable of snowing in this spot
#2: as a result, V2 will look you up with some 3-card hands when V1 bricks and folds
#3: villains will bluff raise enough for you to have a profitable call

...and even then the bet seems razor thin. you lose to half of their badugis. and you also have to account for the times they raise you with a better hand.

regarding the 'call' part of 'bet/call', is there any incentive for these players to bluff raise you when their 3-card hands are always good against your snow hands?
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