Just wondering if there is a good resource for answering questions like. When to break AA and draw to a 4 flush when dealt AAxxx 4 spades?
Cheers

Almost never. Vs a pat its draw to the flush but other then that, I would draw to AA always.

+1

It's rare you'd draw to the flush, but there are situations where it's best. If you know, for example, that you need to beat trips, you have a better shot of doing so if you draw to the flush. If a transparent nit 3bets you out of position, then draws two, you often know exactly what you need to beat. Or against a pat hand that isn't likely to be 2 pair or a bluff, you'd want to draw to the flush.

Thanks guys..What about KK and QQ? At what point do you ditch the pair?

Rarely. If you're dealt a good FD UTG that has a low pair you wouldn't open normally (eg. 7d7sTsQsAs), you can play it for the flush draw as you would normally.

Some pairs are also better played to the flush draw to pair the higher cards (4d4sAsQsJs), especially if both ranges are wide (ie. HU or SB vs BB), where you can valuebet a pair of naked AA/KK/QQ to merge your cbet range a little since usually it's polarized to 2pair+ or air, which causes people to hero off any pair in some situations.

The rest of the time, it's usually not worth it unless you need to beat trips+ or in some multiway situations, since, usually, if you are going to break your pair to draw to a flush or bluff misses, you might as well bluff your unimproved pair most of the time if you think the bluff will pass.

Look in Doyle Brunson's Super System (not Super System II). There's an excellent extensive (about 75 pages) section about draw poker written by Mike Caro and co-authored by Doyle.

I think the answer to your question depends on how many players will be drawing cards and might be continuing. If you're talking about a private game where players often draw to trash and then call on the river, then what to do may differ from what to do in a tight game of casino regulars.

The basic idea when you're drawing to a flush, is since you're usually going to miss, you need to be able to collect enough when you make your draw and end up with a winning flush to cover the times you (1) miss your draw, and also the times you (2) make your draw, but have your flush lose to a better hand (most likely a full house).

When you're using a 52 card deck (no joker), you're looking at five cards, and four of the are of the same suit, let's say hearts, then there are 47 unseen cards, of which 9 are hearts and 38 are some other suit. Your odds of getting a heart if you draw one card are thus 38 to 9 against, or roughly 4.2 to 1 against catching a heart. In other words, you should expect to miss 4.2 times for every 1 time you make the heart flush

If it costs you $10 to draw each time, then your expected loss for the 4.2 times you lose is -$42. You want to be able to recover your $42 investment plus have a cushion to cover the times you make your heart flush only to lose anyway. Probably winning $50 when you win will cover your expenses.

In other words, if it costs you $10 to draw, you have to be able to collect $50 when you do make a winning heart flush. Usually you won't be able to do that.

However, in a loose private game, if five opponents also pay $10 to draw, you're covered. Alternatively, if only three opponents also pay $10, but one of them will pay another $20 to see your hand when you successfully make a winning heart flush, then you're also covered. Perhaps you can see there are various other alternatives as well... ways you can collect five times what it costs you to draw.

That's the basic idea when you're drawing to a flush.

The situation is more complicated than just drawing to a flush when you also have a pair of aces... because your pair of aces is probably better than the holdings of your opponents, and you might improve to two pairs or better. A single unimproved pair of aces might be a winning hand and two pairs, aces over, is probably usually a winning hand in this game.

Bottom line in a tight game against strong opponents is you probably won't be able to recover enough when you do make your flush to cover the times you don't plus the times you do, only to lose to a better hand. In such a game, draw to the aces.

But read what Mike and Doyle had to say about five card draw back in nineteen seventies when draw poker was still the most popular poker game. It's good stuff, in my humble opinion.

Buzz

Also, back in the Gardena games Mike Caro played in those days, jokers could pair Aces, which meant there are 6 Aces in the deck effectively.

I think the game was played with just one joker, so there are 5 aces. The joker can also complete a flush or straight. So all of the odds in SuperSystem are off a bit. It's a fun chapter, but the game most people play online now is just no-joker, no-openers pot-limit 5-draw. It's pretty different from the game in the book.

Any good reference material for todays game?

BigPooch made articles for a site a while back; google him.

I have a CR video coming out in 2 weeks too, first training site 5cd video I think, I'd like input on it.

I still think that there's much to be gleaned from that chapter, despite the adjustments to be made for today's game. It is a must-read (and re-read) for 5 card players, imo.

yes, but a lot of it is predicated on having the joker. the come hands are no longer as good to play, aces aren't that valuable. two pair are more valuable, but are still a problem hand.

where can i find material on what adjustments to make with out the joker?

is there any draw with the joker available online?

thanks

I would like to ask why people preferred to play with the jacks or better rule? Why was it seen as a better game than letting people open what they wanted?

it's not better, california (guts) with blinds is a great game, i used to play this in gardena. the jacks or better rule was done by the casinos to keep the weaker players from losing too fast.

thanks

^ Thanks, always wondered that. I am a NLHE player but I often play the astronomer freerolls, which are lots of different variants (right now I am in a break in a 2-7 NL single draw one), for fun and to try to get a bit of a wider perspective on different games.

First hand of the 2-7 one someone shows down AAKKQ for nut 2 pair.

Good reference for all draw games including big bet is Norman Zadeh's Winning Poker Systems.

i suspect that 5cd without the joker would be pretty staid. way fewer come hands. no 22 way straight flush draw

thanks