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Old 05-07-2017, 04:43 PM   #1
Pavulon
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24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

Pokerstars microstakes 8-game, the only info is that the guy was 2 tabling lol

What's my best option on the 2nd draw here and how to plan for the 3rd?

A pack of feral cows chewed their cuds for .0043 seconds to convert this hand
PokerStars Limit Triple Draw $0.20/$0.40 - 6 players

SB: $21.37 (Hero)
BB: $4.38
UTG: $11.84
UTG+1: $2.39
CO: $5.84
Button: $2.82

Dealing Hands: ($0.30) (6 players)
UTG raises to $0.40, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.30, BB folds

First Draw: ($1.00) (2 players)
Hero discards 2, UTG discards 2,
||
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

Second Draw: ($1.40) (2 players)
Hero discards 1, UTG discards 1,
||
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.40, Hero raises to $0.80, UTG raises to $1.20, Hero calls $0.40

Third Draw: ($3.80) (2 players)
Hero stands, UTG stands,

Hero checks, UTG bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

(Rake: $0.16)
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:24 PM   #2
RolldUpTrips
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

You improved in a 2:2 so you should lead the flop. As played, you improved in a 1:1 so you should lead the turn. As played, pat and call down.
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:00 PM   #3
zoogenhiem
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

Fold predraw. You have a rough non-nutted draw with blockers to the bad cards you hope your opponent has or will catch (the 9s). As played, definitely x/c on the flop. Absolutely no reason to raise with a rough draw especially blocking the 9s. Blocking the 9s also makes calling down worse but I still think you have to do it.

I'm curious if other people think there is additional value to be had on the turn or river? Is this hand strong enough to go crazy with? What if the 9s weren't dead?
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:11 AM   #4
RolldUpTrips
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Fold predraw. You have a rough non-nutted draw with blockers to the bad cards you hope your opponent has or will catch (the 9s). As played, definitely x/c on the flop. Absolutely no reason to raise with a rough draw especially blocking the 9s. Blocking the 9s also makes calling down worse but I still think you have to do it.

I'm curious if other people think there is additional value to be had on the turn or river? Is this hand strong enough to go crazy with? What if the 9s weren't dead?
This is WAY too tight to fold to a button raise. Don't fold. X/c on the flop is a mistake because you announce that you don't have a particularly strong draw by not leading. in 2:2 when you improve to a 1 you always lead. It helps greatly with balance and also doesn't give your opponent a free draw when he misses (which he will around half the time).
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Old 05-08-2017, 09:04 AM   #5
Small Balls
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

It's actually an UTG raise. I could be convinced either way to call or fold. Most of the time I'd fold but in 8-game I'd be more inclined to play it. I'd play it the same as Rolld for the rest of the hand.
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Old 05-08-2017, 09:33 AM   #6
Pavulon
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
You improved in a 2:2 so you should lead the flop
I thought of it but then I thought that I'm on a gutshot so maybe its not as strong as a standard improvement to a 1card draw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
As played, you improved in a 1:1 so you should lead the turn.
got it bet,call if he 2bets yes? then pat-check,call the River yes?


Quote:
Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
Fold predraw. you hope your opponent has or will catch (the 9s).
256 is not that rough is it? 67 or 68 will be ok most of the times at the showdown I think. yeah ist not ideal but ts not super bad either

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoogenhiem View Post
you hope your opponent has or will catch (the 9s).
I'm not too sure about that, if we end up going 1:1 on the 2nd and I catch a J or a T going into 3rd, I don't really want him to catch a 9

I could be wrong tho
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:36 PM   #7
zoogenhiem
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

Listen to me the least of anybody. I'm a triple draw fish even though I love the game. Just chimed I. To compare what I had to say with what others would say.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:31 PM   #8
doylebrunson1337
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

re-raise pre and draw 3 or fold.
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Old 05-08-2017, 07:15 PM   #9
Pavulon
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

I'm a fish too don't listen to me either haha
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:24 PM   #10
doylebrunson1337
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

actually now that I think about it folding is still best but the option is to re-raise pre and draw 1 card to 9 low. Now no matter what u hit (lowcards that complete ur hand 2-8) you can pat until/or if VILLAIN also hits a pat hand giving u a re-draw to a smooth hand. If u start with 2689x for example u don't play that hand because if u hit a 7 there is 2/3 risk that you will be drawing dead but with 2569x and x hits 3,4,7 or 8 (I mean 16 outs 3 times, u cant miss) there is 1/3 that u will have a stronger hand on final draw and 1/3 drawing more smooth than VILLAIN on final draw and the final 1/3 u hit a T on first and bluff-pat. U will have 38% aim 3 times and adding tens to bluffpat gives u a triple coinflip as long as VILLAIN throws his tens.

edit: I wonder if this works vs 2 villains...

Last edited by doylebrunson1337; 05-08-2017 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:33 PM   #11
DeathDonkey
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

It's not a terrible hand to CR turn with as a change up play but yeah standard would be bet first and second draws. Pre is sorta close depends how well they play. Ignore Doyle
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Old 05-16-2017, 09:39 AM   #12
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
It's not a terrible hand to CR turn with as a change up play but yeah standard would be bet first and second draws. Pre is sorta close depends how well they play. Ignore Doyle
If Villain has a 2 card draw with no other card higher than 5 for example 234xx then

First draw hero drawing 1 and Villain drawing 2
Hero Binks and Villain binks = 4%
Hero Binks and Villain misses = 30%
Hero Misses and villain catches up = 1/5
Both Player misses and or villain hits a 1card draw = 35-49% <--- most likely


Second draw
Hero pats 9low and villain draws 1 = 56% on third, hero
Hero pats and villain draws 2 and binks = 1/6
Hero Binks = 62%
Hero Binks and villain hits 1 card draw/and or also binks = 14,4% - 19,2%
Hero Misses and villain catches up = 1/3

Third draw =
A Hero Has 66% equity
B Hero has 33% equity
C both players draw 1 card = Hero has 51% and Villain has 49%
D HERO misses both draws and villain hits his draw and pats = 20% to 30%
E VIllain folds to a c-bet on second = 1/6
If Villain starts with 2349x or 234Tx then Villain basically has 2/3 equtiy drawing 1 card but if VIllain tosses the 9 then VILLAIn basically is trading it off with HERO. Hero gains 3,75 value with the worse hand.

Last edited by doylebrunson1337; 05-16-2017 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 05-16-2017, 11:52 AM   #13
doylebrunson1337
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by doylebrunson1337 View Post
Third draw =
A Hero Has 66% equity
B Hero has 33% equity
C both players draw 1 card = Hero has 51% and Villain has 49%
C both players draw 1 card = Hero has 51% and Villain has 49%
Miscalculated, Villain has doubled value in this spot 38% of the time meaning that if HERO bricks both draws and they both draw 1 on the river there is 57% chance that both players will hit with value-bet/showdown-value (Hero hits 9% better but VILLAIN takes the rest).. My bad. So in this spot Hero should pat/bluff.

Last edited by doylebrunson1337; 05-16-2017 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:26 AM   #14
phunkphish
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
You improved in a 2:2 so you should lead the flop. As played, you improved in a 1:1 so you should lead the turn. As played, pat and call down.

...in 2:2 when you improve to a 1 you always lead. It helps greatly with balance...
It is not balanced if your checkback range is entirely unimproved hands. Players could aggressively pat their bad hands after first/second draw if you don't have a xr range.
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Old 05-23-2017, 04:23 PM   #15
DeathDonkey
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

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Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
It is not balanced if your checkback range is entirely unimproved hands. Players could aggressively pat their bad hands after first/second draw if you don't have a xr range.


You could xr a few 2 to pat hands...
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Old 05-24-2017, 02:28 AM   #16
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

"you improved in a 1:1 so you should lead turn" --> this statement is still incorrect.

OOP Leading all 2:2 improve to 1, only xr 2-to-pat still has problems. You will have way more bricked hands than made hands.
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:13 AM   #17
RolldUpTrips
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
"you improved in a 1:1 so you should lead turn" --> this statement is still incorrect.

OOP Leading all 2:2 improve to 1, only xr 2-to-pat still has problems. You will have way more bricked hands than made hands.
I think you misread what I said? Now that we've reached the turn we should lead since it was 1:1 and we made a pat hand. I don't entirely understand what you said but that could be a function of your not understanding what I said? idk lol
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:15 AM   #18
RolldUpTrips
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
It is not balanced if your checkback range is entirely unimproved hands. Players could aggressively pat their bad hands after first/second draw if you don't have a xr range.
This isn't a check-back range. This is OOP in 2:2 on the flop.
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:09 PM   #19
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

You've made two claims.

1. After 1:1 with 1 draw to go, you should lead out OOP of you improve. The phrasing implies you would always lead when you improve. That's obviously bad, since your checking range will be super weak.

2. After 2:2 first draw, you should always lead if you improve to a 1card draw. DDonkey made a good clarifying post that you can still have a xr range consisting of pat hands.

After thinking about it some more, I can get on board with that plan. Being OOP, it's good to simplify your game: check all your crap, polarized with monsters. Bet all else. However, I wouldn't be surprised if there exists a better strategy with more strata involved.
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Old 05-25-2017, 12:26 AM   #20
electrical
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Re: 24568 2nd draw vs 3bet

I like having a c/r frequency 2:2 first draw (frequency as distinct from range) because your opponent has to reveal the absolute strength of his hand in position, and the blocker hands you were going to c/r/pat have some cover. If you have a hand like 23388 and villain bets showing improvement you can change gears and draw, if he checks behind your pat/lead line will be credible, but if he's the type to autobet UI with the lead and position in a 2:2 spot you retain the option to c/r/pat. This assumes you c/r/lead with pat hands of all strengths. If you have a hand like a bad 98 in a 2:2 spot you don't necessarily give up information by check/patting if villain has seen you check better hands, and that means your checking should not be related to the strength of your hand but rather how complete an assortment of actions villain has seen you make in that spot.
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