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Old 05-12-2017, 03:30 AM   #1
DeepInCidurr
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$215 2-7 SCOOP

basically a complete 2-7 novice, 20 hours play lifetime probably, but feel confident in my poker intuition.

here the SB leads in 3 way pot after the 1st draw when i was predraw aggresor, then draws 1 on the 2nd draw. I suppose this means that he has a quality 4 card, 2345,2347 etc.

This assumption about his hand rules out him having a worse 8 than me by the final draw, and means the only hand i realistically beat given the action is a super solid 9 which he decided to make a (maybe?) lightish v.bet on the river with.

last note, he also tanked for like 15 seconds on the river. i felt like this was more likely to be him having a 7 or quality 8, trying to level me into calling with all 8s/good 9s, rather than him actually pondering a decision on whether to v. bet his 95432.

all criticism about my lines of thinking and/or the way i played the hand are really welcome, as i have day 2 tomorrow and really should figure out wdf im supposed to be doing. The most important question i would like answering is, getting like 7 to 1 here, even with all my reasoning, do i just have to call here for the times he has 95432 + the times my assumptions about his hand are wrong? or is this a relatively standard fold given the action? Did i otherthink the hand here and make a horrible theoretical mistake despite what his actual hand was?

thanks in advance

without further delay...

once a cow has a taste for violence, it reverts. it becomes feral.
PokerStars Limit Triple Draw ($200+$15) t8000/t16000 - 5 players

BB: t487,720
UTG: t180,120
CO: t143,525
Button: t186,390 (Hero)
SB: t165,735

Dealing Hands: (t12,000) (5 players)
UTG folds, CO folds, Hero raises to t16000, SB calls t12000, BB calls t8000

First Draw: (t48,000) (3 players)
SB discards 2, BB discards 3, Hero discards 2,
||
SB bets t8000, BB folds, Hero calls t8000

Second Draw: (t64,000) (2 players)
SB discards 1, Hero discards 1,
||
SB bets t16000, Hero calls t16000

Third Draw: (t96,000) (2 players)
SB stands, Hero stands,

SB bets t16000, Hero folds

SB collected t96000

Last edited by DeepInCidurr; 05-12-2017 at 03:42 AM.
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:45 AM   #2
RolldUpTrips
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

A few points about this hand:
1. He should lead with any 1cd. The initiative in draw is determined by the number of cards drawn not the aggressor as in flop games, so all that matters is that he improved.
2. This hand was a great one to freeze with. Good choice.
3. Once you freeze you eliminate your strong hands from your range, so it becomes correct for him to bet worse for value. Let's think of it in terms of numbers - you are getting 7:1 so he has to have you beat 7/8 of the time for a fold to be correct. Let's simply count worse hands that he will bet and see if there are enough better ones to compensate - 87652, 87653, 95432, 96432 (maybe even more but we can easily stop there). Are there 28 hands that can beat you? Definitely not since you have i believe #15. For sure a call. Even if we eliminate 96432 it's a call and if we eliminate 9-perfect it's break-even since 14 hands beat you.
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:52 AM   #3
DeepInCidurr
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

'freeze' - could you elaborate?

so he should lead with like 8542 and the like? i guess because everyone drew at least 2 so him improving to a 1cd just means he should bet, try to KO the BB, get more bets in the pot when i havnt improved and check back? this is a pretty great tip and makes a lot of sense.

thanks for your thorough reply, its really appreciated.

Last edited by DeepInCidurr; 05-12-2017 at 05:06 AM.
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:57 AM   #4
DeepInCidurr
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

when you say he should lead all 1cds, is that all 1cds to an 8, or only smooth 1cds to an 8, or only 1cds to a 7? should he lead, say, 8723? as this completely ruins my assumption about him not being able to have a worse 8 than me

Last edited by DeepInCidurr; 05-12-2017 at 05:07 AM.
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Old 05-12-2017, 05:01 AM   #5
DeepInCidurr
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

also, when i pat IP vs him after he pats, doesnt this vastly strengthen his betting range in the future? i (probably incorrectly) assumed that when OOP pats and then IP pats, OOP should be somewhat tentative about betting? ive probably overestimated how much this affects ppls betting ranges.
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Old 05-12-2017, 05:46 AM   #6
Codfish60
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
A few points about this hand:
1. He should lead with any 1cd. The initiative in draw is determined by the number of cards drawn not the aggressor as in flop games, so all that matters is that he improved.
2. This hand was a great one to freeze with. Good choice.
3. Once you freeze you eliminate your strong hands from your range, so it becomes correct for him to bet worse for value. Let's think of it in terms of numbers - you are getting 7:1 so he has to have you beat 7/8 of the time for a fold to be correct. Let's simply count worse hands that he will bet and see if there are enough better ones to compensate - 87652, 87653, 95432, 96432 (maybe even more but we can easily stop there). Are there 28 hands that can beat you? Definitely not since you have i believe #15. For sure a call. Even if we eliminate 96432 it's a call and if we eliminate 9-perfect it's break-even since 14 hands beat you.
I'm wondering at which point a freeze turns into a raise. I'm definitely freezing here with this hand, but what about 87532? 87432? Is there a mathematical way of working it out? I'm guessing it's very dependent on villains range/tendencies though.

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Old 05-12-2017, 01:13 PM   #7
Smarty 2.0
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

Don't fold river after not raising on D2.
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Old 05-13-2017, 04:35 PM   #8
OnTheRail15
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

Yeah this is one of the best hands you are calling after 2 and patting behind so folding is a game theory disaster.
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Old 05-13-2017, 04:43 PM   #9
zoogenhiem
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

Folding river is a disaster. Otherwise seems fine. And listen to RolledUpTrips -- infinitely better at this game than I am.
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Old 05-13-2017, 05:02 PM   #10
chillrob
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

I was thinking folding the river wouldn't make sense here either, but I don't play the game much. For people who know more - are there any hands you could have on the river that you would play the same as hero did (including river fold)?
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Old 05-14-2017, 12:20 AM   #11
MacauBound
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
I was thinking folding the river wouldn't make sense here either, but I don't play the game much. For people who know more - are there any hands you could have on the river that you would play the same as hero did (including river fold)?
Maybe hands like 98543 or 97643, where we don't block many 2s or 7s and don't gain a ton by breaking. They don't gain as much by breaking bc doing so creates straight draws or they aren't drawing to a strong hand.

Last edited by MacauBound; 05-14-2017 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 05-14-2017, 12:32 AM   #12
ninefingershuffle
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

I'd raise many streets
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Old 05-15-2017, 04:29 PM   #13
DeathDonkey
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
I'd raise many streets


I think that is quite bad fwiw
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Old 05-16-2017, 06:40 PM   #14
ninefingershuffle
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

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Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
I think that is quite bad fwiw
It is worth a lot to me DD.

Is this because it is a tournament? Our hand seems better than a bluff catcher.
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Old 05-16-2017, 07:08 PM   #15
DeathDonkey
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

It's better than a bluff catcher but only by a little. The 87 draw is not very good and the made 876 is just a good hand to freeze. We don't want worse hands breaking and we don't really love raise/folding.
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Old 05-16-2017, 11:00 PM   #16
RolldUpTrips
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Re: $215 2-7 SCOOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepInCidurr View Post
also, when i pat IP vs him after he pats, doesnt this vastly strengthen his betting range in the future? i (probably incorrectly) assumed that when OOP pats and then IP pats, OOP should be somewhat tentative about betting? ive probably overestimated how much this affects ppls betting ranges.
This is backwards. He should bet more often in 0:0 than in 0:1. The fact that you didn't raise the turn weakens your range CONSIDERABLY. Now, this is just a fact of life when you freeze, but the freeze is still good.
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