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Draw and Other Poker Discussion of poker games not covered elsewhere (e.g. badugi, draw, triple-draw, pineapple)

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Old 06-14-2012, 01:22 PM   #16
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

I would imagine that it's higher EV to pat and check/call the river optimally than to lead the river in hopes that villain folds out some better hands. (And I'm not saying either is best.) There are probably better spots to represent a whiffed check-raise.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:05 PM   #17
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

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Originally Posted by the_sergeant View Post
IMO this is a situation in which your check on the turn could appear to be an attempted check-raise when you pat the final draw. As the Jack is such a weak hand, I'm not happy with checking once the opponent in position draws. If you check and he checks back...he could show up with a stronger Jack or a weak Ten that he would likely fold to a pat-bet.
Well then you're turning it into a bluff, and I don't think this is the right hand to bluff here in this spot. I don't think people are folding Ts or better Js to your pat-bet. The line looks fishy, so they'll look you up with their bluff-catcher (Ts and decent Js make good bluff-catchers precisely because people make a bet here with worse every now and then).

If you want to bluff, do it with a similarly bad (or worse) draw where you've paired 3 times or something, so you know most/all the 3s or 4s etc are dead. As you might notice, that means you're not bluffing here very often, which is also probably a good idea.

More importantly, if they've checked behind after you check, just draw. The pot isn't monstrously large - aim to get a value-bet in on the river.


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As far as the induced bluff-raise...that's a good point. He could indeed attempt a bluff-raise. However, if you've been playing with this player for any decent amount of time you should have a decent read in order to re-bluff or call off with the Jack. (This would be difficult indeed, but not impossible)
Re-bluffing with a hand that is ahead of basically every hand in a 2-7 players bluff-raising range doesn't make sense. If you think they are bluffing and will fold to a 3-bet, you should always just call. The only reason to 3-bet would be for value, if you think they'll only ever raise here with a range that is comprised of <50% value hands and >50% bluff hands that they'll call your 3-bet with. I don't think I've ever had the confidence in my read to try that play.

You'd have to play with someone for quite a while to know that they'd never make a seemingly random bluff-raise. They might only do it in this spot when they catch another 2 and they've seen all the 2s, or they might do it when they catch a straight, or top pair, or something else that you could play a few hundred hands with them and not see. You'll just pay off too many value bets if you're calling raises with this hand and presumably all better ones.

If you x/c the river, you still allow them to make those same bluffs, but it only costs you one bet. At these stakes, the hands they would try a bluff-raise with they would have bluffed when checked to anyway.
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Old 06-15-2012, 02:07 AM   #18
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

i would definitely draw, since you're oop and there's betting left. you don't know if your opponent is pat or drawing, and he's going to play perfectly against you when you pat/check.

also not sure if i 3bet pre with this hand. With a 2 card draw to a perfect 8 or a 1 card draw to a 8-6, i think 3betting is okay, but with this, meh.
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Old 07-03-2012, 06:34 AM   #19
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

Does anyone know of a decent equity calculator for 2-7 triple draw? I cant find anything that works.
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Old 07-03-2012, 01:16 PM   #20
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

troutolator is ok. nothing is going to be perfect as there are so many variables when you have to consider multiple street drawing decisions.
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Old 07-03-2012, 01:19 PM   #21
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

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Originally Posted by DjSkyy View Post
i would definitely draw, since you're oop and there's betting left. you don't know if your opponent is pat or drawing, and he's going to play perfectly against you when you pat/check.

also not sure if i 3bet pre with this hand. With a 2 card draw to a perfect 8 or a 1 card draw to a 8-6, i think 3betting is okay, but with this, meh.
Pretty sure you have to draw, since you are OOP and he could pat a better hand. If you had position and he drew 1, it would be a close decision, so easy draw OOP.

Betting last street is marginal, since you draw 1 whether called or raised. Probably c/c is a little better.
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Old 07-03-2012, 06:33 PM   #22
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

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Originally Posted by newschool2 View Post
Does anyone know of a decent equity calculator for 2-7 triple draw? I cant find anything that works.
slice ev has one but i have not used it yet
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Old 07-04-2012, 07:21 AM   #23
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

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slice ev has one but i have not used it yet
I have it, and cant get it to work. Not to say its not a good program, but that speaks for its user friendlyness atleast.
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Old 07-04-2012, 07:37 AM   #24
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I had some questions about the fold equity calc they had and they answered really quick
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:34 AM   #25
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

will do, thanks
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:18 PM   #26
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Without the use of calculators, you've seen 7 cards, you're contemplating breaking a jack to draw to a rough 8. 20 cards theoretically out of 45 unseen. Making a better hand 1:2.25 of the time. He's on the same pull, as you have to assume he's drawing under your jack. The odds are in fact worse than this since wheel cards are no doubt shared and you overlap.
After last draw you're on the guessing game oop if you pat but with 6 big bets in there facing 0-1 big bet left on the end, these spots are easiest to rap pat and c/decide.
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Old 07-09-2012, 05:52 PM   #27
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

i just downloaded slice and i think it is for "27lowball" not triple draw lowball i mean only 1 street of equity
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Old 07-10-2012, 01:27 AM   #28
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiv View Post
I'm playing heads up, and I'm the BB.
SB raises, I 3bet with 368xx, he calls.
I draw 2, he draws 3. I now have 3678J
I bet, he calls. We both draw 1.
I get another Jack, so my hand again is 3678J.
I bet, and he calls.
I prefer flatting instead of 3-betting pre-flop, betting flop after improving, betting with my Jack on the turn and patting, and betting on the river with the intention of folding to a raise if I'm pretty certain my opponent is unlikely to bluff-raise.
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:52 AM   #29
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

always draw here. if you're in pos and he draws one, pat if u like. if u bet and he calls turn and u have to act first, i think ur drawing.
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Old 07-15-2012, 01:26 AM   #30
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Re: 2-7 TD Pat or Draw?

the fact that your "ahead" doesn't really factor in the times where he freezes you here, c/c and break the jack
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