General reads: The round-by-round is the only mid-limit game in Detroit, and it's quite a juicy one. The LHE can range from sane with a couple of soft spots to moderately wild. The limit Omaha high rounds are often a free for all. The players are a mix between semi-competent/aggressive postflop and passive postflop, both pretty loose, especially in LOH.

On this particular afternoon, it's been playing noticeably tighter than normal, knocking it down to only moderately juicy.

Specific reads: HJ is the elder statesman of the game, a pretty decent postflop player although he cold calls a lot in HE and plays a ton of bad hands in O.

CO is another reg, seems like an all-around fun guy but even looser. He doesn't get out of line too much postflop, but might occasionally make a standard bet or raise with a draw.

BB is unknown to me but seems pretty tight.

Kill (UTG) is a pretty solid reg who still sometimes shows up with a somewhat loose hand.

Hero showed up recently as first from must-move, hasn't played many hands since. (Since my level of postflop ability could matter to how we play preflop, let's presume that i've learned not to make bad folds like this and i'm probably better postflop than some of the field but still lack a lot of confidence postflop.)

Rake: 10% to $5 max
Small blind (Hero): $10
Big blind: $15
Kill (UTG): $20, won previous two pots
Stakes: $20/40, contrary to the subject line

Hero's cards: AAJ6
Kill checks, fold to HJ raise, CO calls, button folds, Hero ????

My read is that, given the odd shorthanded nature of the pot, HJ may be raising light. He doesn't usually open-raise too much in O. I expect that my 3 bet will make the pot 3, 4, or 5 handed with respective probability 40%, 40%, 20%.

Haven't played much O, but even OOP aren't you in good enough shape to make sure UTG doesn't get in cheap and CO has to pay?

Your probable outcome is 3 handed with your hand face-up. This is why Limit Games are so tricky.
Call and checkraise every street after the aces full flop.

So, better 5-handed for pure set value than 3-handed (sorta) face up? If my hand's face up, that implies i need a wider 3-bet range, right?

(3-betting wide kinda sucks because I'd like to control variance, but i like playing +EV even more. I guess set value is the low-variance way to play AA in LOH.)

As i was considering Villain's range here i pretty much answered my question, but please check my reasoning. As played:

Hero 3-bets, BB folds, kill calls 2 cold, HJ calls, CO calls.


Flop (12.5 SB): 7 5 2

Hero bets, all call.

Pot's large, so getting even bottom pair to fold has value. No straight or flush on board so i'm probably still ahead.

Turn (8.25 BB): T

Hero bets, fold, fold, CO raises, Hero ???

I would assign him a range of: set (100% weight), top two (80%), wraps (80%), any of the million OESDs with nut spades (43, 64, 86, 98, or all kinds of double-gutters; 50%), same straight draws with non-nut spades (25%), bare NFD (15%). Note that, unlike playing Omaha against tougher players, in this game wraps aren't particularly common because people's preflop range aren't weighted toward coordinating cards.

I think you overvalue AAxx hands in LOH. They don't do well multiway (unless they're doublesuited or xx are broadway cards) and are hard to play post-flop unimproved, as you found out.

Flop is fairly bad for you. Only turn you really like is Ad.

Turn: you're most likely pretty far behind but have bloated the pot so you need to call down as bluff-catcher (I'd obv fold to tight passive villain who takes same line but doesn't have semibluffs in his range)

So I should literally always be trying to create a multiway pot with AA and play for set value, right? Never attempt to isolate with AA, only ever 3-bet for value?

Is it OK to cold-call naked AA? If i'm only playing it as a set draw, that seems wrong.

Last night i three bet AATT in a multiway pot purely for value. Surely that's got to be correct? (Even so, i totally missed the two red card flop and felt i needed to play aggressively in the resulting 20+ SB flop pot before losing to a turned gutshot/backdoor flush that probably had odds to call two cold. But i'm fine with that because i get tremendous value with that hand in a 5-way 20-bet pot and will nail a lot of flops.)

of course isolate IF you can (by this I mean get heads up), but if you can't then tread carefully. frankly i'd muck aa47 no suits in EP or to 2 bets in a multiway pot.

yeah, double suited aces is a monster multiway but most of the value comes from having the nut suits. being able to flop a set a 10s adds further value to your hand.

OK, well in this game there are few occasions where i can reasonably expect to get heads up. Sounds like i'll be 3betting for value with monsters, playing for set value (+NFD when single-suited) where appropriate, and folding naked offsuit aces cold to a raise preflop. Is cold-calling OK with any aces and one suit?

Thanks as always for the feedback.

Sounds reasonable. Calling 2 bets with AAxx with one suit is a marginal spot imo. Until you get more confident playing postflop/have solid reads on villains, I'd recommend folding unless your had has other value.

When you consider the fact that a PFR means fewer aces left for
you (i.e. raiser has one or two more often than random) your
hand becomes marginal, but I think calling is fine since it really
can't be a big mistake. I would not re-raise since the only time
this is appealing is if I can get heads up, and that is not happening
enough to matter.

This flop situation is about as bad as it gets. You really needed
to hit a piece, or at least see a low pair. Betting out here is pure
spew. In fact, I vote for check/fold despite my current equity
is probably well above the 6% or so I'd need to call a bet all in.
This is because I am virtually always making crying calls from
here on in. In other words, this situation makes it impossible to
play even close to correct from the FTOP point of view.

Barring a miracle Ad (which makes a wheel too), this hand is never
going to look good, but if you manage to pair the deuce or get
something like running TT you may come out alive. And if that
happens, you will win some, but you will also be donating in lots
of spots where you were drawing dead or nearly so.

Your flop bet got 3 calls... Well Duh! They can see 15:1 pot odds
and will call with damn near A4C, after all, these are fish and they
will probably focus on your hand, say "He's got AA and I've got all
kinds of ways to beat that by the river. They will not consider the
idea that one of the other players may be crushing BOTH of you
And in fact, with this pot size, a lot of "bad" calls will either be
correct or so very near to correct as to be close enough, especially.
if AA is going to pay off all the way

On the turn you got two folds. This is proof that two of the
calls were very light, such as dry overapirs, which even with this
pot, have no business calling. You were very lucky to get those
two folds, but when the button raises, your luck has just run out.

You have no clue what to do. Personally, in limit poker, I usually
fold the turn when raised and all I can beat is a bluff. The reason
is that I really can't ever fold this river since I am calling the turn
to pick off a bluff and there is not really much I can like on the river,
though the Ad is probably good.

Only if my opponent is highly likely to "put me on AA" and is
the sort to try to bluff out my "exposed" hand would I even
consider calling him down.

It is precisely this kind of scenario that leads me to simply check/fold
the hand on the flop.

Omaha is not like holdem. You can't pull down your pants and
scare everyone off with your big testosterone laden bets.
The hand you represent is not scaring anyone. In fact, it causes
them to play better and more aggressively.

Imagine this hand as if you had smooth called instead. Now you fire
out. With this board, that plan could work, since it is low enough to
miss lots of hands. I would not do it, but its not the worst play.

Now you are MUCH more dangerous. You may not win the
hand. After all, your hand is almost certainly well under 25%
equity at the moment, but you won't get pushed around as
much because your range now looks to be heavily weighted
towards hands that match the flop.

And so if you do get raised, you can be pretty sure you are
losing, especially when the betting was like this. After all, your
opponent can't really expect you to fold often and so bluffs on the
turn should be rare. Maybe calling down a flop raise vs one villain
is OK, but that is about it, since he may be betting a big draw
that he's forced to turn into a bluff.

I agree that pf is marginal but I think you still have to 3b. Kill open checked his option in a spot where I'd expect people will usually raise with any semblance of a hand and BB is BB. Those trashy hands (4 unconnected non-ace cards) are really going to eat away at your equity and go to co or button for the most part imo. I think your hand benefits hugely by getting it 3 handed against at least one big pair or 2 pair hand that you dominate.

You said a pot is very rarely this short handed so balancing in this particular instance might not be so important. You can also 3 bet suited A broadways or odd ball mid-connectors for deception if you are worried that your hand is too face up here.

Not sure how I ended up back on this thread but I have some further thoughts I didn't mention before. Mainly, no one discussed position. Basically, bloating a pot OOP is rarely a good idea (though admittedly less bad in limit than in PL). Exceptions can be made for monster multiway hands, getting an AAxx hand heads up, or isolating a weak villain.

With the same hand/situation but where hero is button, I actually like 3 betting but with the understanding that this is a marginal spot and should be treated as such. Of course, we hope UTG folds, HJ 4 bets, and CO folds and we get HU in position but I'm fine with being in position against 3 or 4 villains in a big pot. Postflop play will depend heavily on reads and # of villains but I basically continue UI for 1 bet on each street, bet if checked to on dry boards, and fold to heavy action on any street.

As for AAxxns hands in general, there is no shame in folding pre (esp OOP obv) if hero is not comfortable in marginal situations (primarily betting/calling light), wants to reduce variance, or thinks villains can outplay him/her postflop,

Very interesting hand. I think in practice I'd lean towards just shutting down on the turn but it's def interesting.