I'm not the biggest NJPW fan, but I'm guessing that those two are not going to have a 45 minute match where they pull out all the stops and take crazy bumps at any old show like they did at WK. So that is where I think the comparison falls short.

Not sure if it's been discussed yet, but if they're setting up Roman vs. Braun, why didn't they keep Braun in the Rumble and have them showdown a little bit?

It's a logistics thing. They wanted the ring to fill up for Lesnar, Goldberg, etc and it's hard to have Strowman in the ring without eliminations happening. They also probably don't want Braun working 40+ minutes either.

Because they wanted him to dominate a portion of the Rumble and he did, but if he stays in for longer then he has to take offense from people, lay on the ground for 5 minutes at a time like everyone else and he comes off as just another guy. It was smart to have him come and go and do his thing.

This compilation of reactions to Reigns showing up #30 is fantastic.

http://thebiglead.com/2017/01/30/rem...-rumble-entry/

Right on, wrt the Braun stuff.

fwiw after rewatching aj/cena i think everyones being really hard on it here. it might actually be a better match than the summerslam match and that was my #1 wwe main roster match last year (#2 survivor series, #3 IC four way, #4 womens triple threat).

its distinctly broken into 3 parts: AJ dominating at the start, a back and forth more technical approach with submissions and transitions into them, and then the end of the match haymakers. The match never, ever left the ring and told a good story (esp based on build).

The problems are: 1. everyone knew cena was winning so nobody believed anything in the first two and a half phases, 2. because the avalanche AA didnt work at summerslam nobody expected it to end until either the repeat of the spot first OR something obviously more nuts than that. And since the match ended relatively quickly after that spot again, you were just sitting there and waiting around for it and then it was over, and 3. AJ actually winning last time when everyone thought it was the standard "win one vs cena lose the next two" booking after the tag match the ppv before leaves a much better taste in your mouth rather than lolcenawins.

I understand those feelings on initial view, but I do suggest going back and watching again and giving it another look with a step back. Meltz gave it 4.75 and considered 5. And while rankings arent the end all be all, I think this forum in particular was way harsh on it calling it < 2.5 and worse than the cruiserweights etc.

If ya still feel that way, thats fine. Different strokes etc. But man I loved it.

Being there, the crowd was unbelievably hot for it too which helped. One of the most fun, maybe the most fun match that I have seen live.

i have a belief that a match cant be 5 without the crowd being really into it. atmosphere is just such a huge part of the experience for me

im so jealous

The problems you listed are reasons why it's not the workers' fault why the match was less great than it could have been, but they aren't things that I can just lift away and decide to judge it without considering those factors. They're baked in. There are some matches that have a ceiling no matter how perfect the workers are; for instance, two guys can get saddled down with a horribly-booked ending, and there's just no chance they can make five stars. While the workers provide the biggest influence on how good a match is, the bookers and the crowd play a very real part as well.

The crowd obviously did their part here, so a lot of this does fall to the booking. Unlike a one-off match, this inevitably does get related back to the rest of the series between the two guys, so the SummerSlam (and previous) booking do play a part in this match booking. And to a larger degree, the general WWE booking played a part, because their increasing obsession with BIG KICKOUTS over the years has only gotten worse and worse. They've conditioned the audience to just not care until it's time for the stuff that can actually end matches. It's awful.

When it comes to match ratings and Meltzer, there is this strange thing where I seem to care what he says but have zero issue immediately hand-waving him away as a loon when I disagree with him. It's mostly because I gather that he grades these things with a rubric that is 98% based on how much he liked the wrestling moves in a match, with the other 2% being some very minor consideration of storytelling/booking/crowd. My apportionment would be enough different that I'm just going to end up disagreeing with a fair number of his ratings.

FWIW, I suspended disbelief as to the result and while I did think that Cena would win, I wasn't viewing it through the lens that it was a 100% sure deal. So I did let myself sit there and root for AJ Styles like a mark; that aspect of the match wasn't lost for me, and I don't think that detracted significantly from my enjoyment of the match.

I just don't think that AJ and Cena have particularly great chemistry. AJ Styles is certainly the superior worker to what CM Punk was, but Punk and Cena, not just at MITB but in their other encounters, just put on better work together in my eyes. I was very optimistic prior to the first go-around that AJ vs. Cena could be fantastic, but I never ended up feeling like they cranked out anything close to a truly elite match in any of their encounters.

The SummerSlam bout was the best of the set IMO, but even that one suffered from a lot of the same problems as this one...I didn't think the storytelling at SummerSlam was particularly great either. I thought it was the most straightforward thing in the world, where either they were going to build to the Cena super-AA for the win, or AJ was somehow going to overcome all of that and finally win. As a fan of Styles I was really happy that they went with the latter, but I definitely didn't see that as any sort of particularly inspired storytelling.

Anyway, I write all of this and it makes it sound like I hated this match. I didn't. I said at the time and I still say: it was fun for what it was. My rating for it might be something like ***1/2? Something like that. Which is disappointing given the talent involved and the relatively big stage that it was on, but it was still an enjoyable match.

Thats a great post lkj

Thanks for taking the time to write it up. I still love it, but I can understand your viewpoint. I also agree with you that it's easy to handwave Meltzer away. I do it a lot.

Your comments on punk/cena being > aj/cena is interesting and one that I have to think on. I think the builds were punk/cena were definitely better on first glance, but off the top of my head I recall the mitb match being elite and the rest just being good because they rarely had clean definitive endings. One was a tie due to both shoulders being down after making you think it was a cena win and another was trips miscounting with a foot on the rope that never was mentioned again. Hell, even mitb had the Vince distraction cost him the match. The clean and decisive endings were one thing I very much did enjoy/appreciate from these last two AJ/Cena matches.

I also understand your view of the SS match as being either A or B and just waiting to see which it was. I don't know what it was about these two matches, but I felt like a total mark throughout them. Even though going into this last one I knew Cena was going to win, I was able to just forget that once they started. It was so much fun.

I didn't like it because it was basically the same match as SS except you knew who the winner was going to be. A better finish would have been cena hitting the avalanche AA then immediately picking him up and giving him another one as a callback to SS. As it was booked you knew exactly when the finish was because it was the only new thing in the match.

I don't think its fair to say that everyone knew that Cena was going to win. "Everyone" also knew that Roman was going to win, and he didn't.

This

I agree with LKJ about Punk/Cena being better than AJ/Cena. MITB, SS, and their number 1 contenders match on Raw to see who faces the Rock at WM, were all better than AJ/Cena at the RR imo.

I agree that the Punk/Cena endings weren't all that good. I'm okay with how they ended the MITB match, but it was very cliche and is the first thing I think of if I'm to bring out things about that match that I didn't like.

They'd also never had a match even close to resembling that one before despite wrestling every week for the last 3 months. Context matters IMO.

I'm pretty shocked at everyone expecting Balor/Joe in the 30 slot....

I was about 95% sure it would be HHH at 30. With Balor/Joe/AJ/Reigns/Nakamura somehow split on the other 5%

Before the Rumble there were 8 unannounced spots and perhaps I'm odd for thinking this and I haven't seen a single other person mention this, but if Reigns is #30, why didn't AJ get a spot as the loser of the other title match?

Honestly, I'm just shocked that Taker didn't win once Cena did. I mean, it's kind of like Vince going back in time and saying nah, Rock Hogan doesn't really help anyone so who cares. It's two huge stars of their era that somehow avoided each other for so long (I think theres one match between the two at the start of Cenas run?). It blows my mind that he wanted Brock/Goldberg and then passed on Cena/Taker.

Yeah not getting Cena/Taker is strange, but if it means putting Reigns over as a heel at Mania I'm on board with it. Would still like Cena/Taker if possible.

That said, having Taker win the rumble to set it up would have been appalling. The only way to get to Taker/Cena once Cena wins is to have Taker cost Cena his belt at EC and then have them go 1 on 1 at Mania.

Taker/Cena is probably the most obvious WM main event they've had access to for like 10 years but it's too late now. Would have been a lot of fun when the streak was still intact.

I think if Taker has one more match in him it's best to be vs Reigns to get him over as heel

If he has two, then Reigns this year, and Cena next... purely as a spectacle, even if they can only go 8 minutes, and who gives a **** who wins

If he has three, then **** off he doesnt have three

Undertaker Reigns gonna end up with Taker holding up Reigns arm and pointing to him

This.

They've invested so much time in him as a face, they just aren't going to turn him heel. Just like Cena will never turn heel. Someone on here mentioned that he's not doing well selling merch and I don't know where that info came from but he's #2 right behind Cena.