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Old 06-28-2015, 08:51 PM   #201
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

There is a dailymotion app on PS4 fwiw
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Old 06-28-2015, 09:04 PM   #202
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

I'm not seeing it. But the DM app for the Amazon Fire has no search function (how that's even possible, don't ask me) and is completely worthless.
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Old 06-28-2015, 09:19 PM   #203
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

It's with all the other TV apps - youtube, WWE network etc. Maybe it's only available in certain regions. I haven't used it ayway so dunno if it's any good, just saw it listed and was surprised they even had an app.

Great thread by the way, have been slowly working my way through it.
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Old 06-28-2015, 09:33 PM   #204
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

Thanks.

I searched it a couple of different ways and it didn't show up. You're right that it could be a regional thing.
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Old 06-28-2015, 09:37 PM   #205
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

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Originally Posted by moorobot View Post
Observer readers match of the year voting results from 1991:

1. Steiners vs Hase/Sasaki
2. Nakano vs Hokuto
3. Wargames
4. Cactus Jack vs Eddie Gilbert
5. Steiners vs Luger/Sting
6. Arn/Larry Z vs Rhodes/Steamboat
7. Savage/Warrior
8. Perfect/Hart

Interesting that a Hogan/Flair house show match from Oakland also got votes.
I saw that Scott Keith gave Arn/Zbyszko vs. Rhodes/Steamboat five stars. I'm so confused. It felt like that whole damn match was one long formulaic heat segment. Like...it was a noticeably worse version of the Rock 'n Roll Express vs. Minnesota Wrecking Crew match that I did earlier in the thread, which also featured a really long heat segment but remained really interesting throughout.

I'm also surprised that anyone would prefer Steiners vs. Hase/Chono over Steiners vs. Sting/Luger. It's difficult to find much to prefer about it between the two, even though I did enjoy it.
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Old 06-28-2015, 11:12 PM   #206
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

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I'm also surprised that anyone would prefer Steiners vs. Hase/Chono over Steiners vs. Sting/Luger. It's difficult to find much to prefer about it between the two, even though I did enjoy it.
That is Hase/Sasaki vs Steiners that got 1st, a New Japan match. They listed 18 total getting votes and the Chono/Hase match didn't get listed.
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Old 06-28-2015, 11:18 PM   #207
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

If this was the Starrcade match, it was tremendous and well deserving of MotY. I also remember a bunch of heat in the match but no surprise I suppose with American vs Japanese.
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Old 06-28-2015, 11:21 PM   #208
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

Yeah, Japanese Starrcade match.
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Old 06-28-2015, 11:43 PM   #209
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

It looks like Starrcade '91 was a bunch of Lethal Lottery stuff? Doesn't look like the match happened there.
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Old 06-28-2015, 11:54 PM   #210
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

Japan had a different event they called Starrcade also.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:29 PM   #211
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

I don't know how Cactus / Gilbert can be rated 5* when there isn't a decent video around of their Tri State matches, only incredible photos.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:47 PM   #212
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

There were VHS tapes that were sold out of PWI that showed these as well as Smoky Mountain and ECW shows.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:49 PM   #213
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

The match that was voted 4th place by Observer readers was from 8-3-91. I don't know if Meltzer himself gave it a rating or not but he used to go to a ton of events live back then. He also has like a dozen gigantic crates of old wrestling videos.
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Old 06-29-2015, 09:19 PM   #214
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

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Thanks mets.

By the way, far and away the biggest sticking point that holds Savage-Warrior down for me is the fact that Warrior was just going to voluntarily leave the match. That was absurd for his character. And then chicken**** heel Savage, instead of letting him leave a retirement match, attacks and basically draws Warrior into staying. Maybe let him leave and save your own career?

Sure shows what a difference a couple of decades makes though. In 1991, someone kicks out of Warrior's finisher one time ever, and Warrior's reaction is to get so butthurt that he decides that he's just going to retire on the spot over it. Today you get finisher kickouts in random unannounced meaningless Raw matches, and everyone watching shrugs.
Savage was always too arrogant to take cheap wins (or cheap losses, for that matter). Reminds me of the WMV match with Hogan, after getting knocked out of the ring:

Jesse: If I was Macho, I'd stay down for the count!
Gorilla: You would!
Jesse: That way you keep your title!
Gorilla: He's got more integrity than that, Jess!
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Old 07-12-2015, 11:26 AM   #215
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

World Championship Wrestling: Submit or Surrender Match - Cactus Jack vs. Sting

Date: November 23, 1991

Link: https://youtu.be/vomw5kBXVXY

Background: Don't know. Gotta think it was some sort of blood feud to get to the point of a match with this stipulation. Sting is the US Champion, but I don't believe the title is up for grabs here.

The Match: Jim Ross calling the action, though the audio on this clip is not good. Can't really recognize this referee.



Cactus attacks before the bell, laying in the rights and flooring Sting with a hard jab. Takes him from one corner to another and then rips away at the eyes. He controls for this first minute, but goes for the big spot too early with a running cross-body. Sting ducks, Cactus spills to the floor.

Sting follows him out and takes the fight to him out there, ramming him into the guardrail and then setting up for a DDT on a trash can that gets countered; Cactus ran Sting back-first into the barricade to stop the onslaught. Trying to continue back on offense, Cactus applies a side headlock, but gets back suplexed into the trash can. Okay, come on; that spot was distractingly stupid. They're brawling with weapons and suddenly Cactus is going to apply a standing side headlock on the outside? What was he going to do with that?



Sting rolls Jack back in, brings the dented (plastic) trash can in with him and places it over Jack's head. Knocks him over, drops an elbow on the can. Cactus lays prone, and Sting goes up and hits a top rope splash, again on the can that's covering Cactus. Cactus finally works the trash can off. Sting whips Jack into the ropes, attempts a leapfrog, but basically gets crotched in mid-leapfrog because Jack doesn't duck. Don't know that I've ever seen that as a designed spot before. Or even as an accident. That was pretty clearly designed though.

Legdrop by Foley, who then stomps away at the US Champion. then drapes him along the ropes and jumps on him from behind. Bulldog by the hardcore legend. A couple of measured kneedrops. They show a crowd shot, and I swore that it had panned in on young Jim Harbaugh in the audience, but upon rewinding to check…nah, don't think it's him. Jack continues the offense, stomping away in the corner and then unceremoniously dumping the Stinger out through the middle rope. Cactus follows him outside, forcibly grabs a steel chair from the audience against a fan's resistance, and levels Sting with it.



Both men head toward the ring, but Foley is in quicker and hangs Sting along the top rope as he looks to enter. Once Sting is in, Foley remains in firm control, executing a few slow-down moves to give the two men something of a breather in this match. Sting looks to reverse the momentum by countering Jack with a surprise jaw-jacker, but when he follows with a whip into the ropes, Jack holds on at the ropes and Sting throws a dropkick that comes up empty.

Double-arm DDT by Cactus. He wastes a bunch of time traipsing around the ring for no apparent reason, and then when he goes back to work Sting backdrops him over the top rope. Sting with a pescado to the outside, and we're back to brawling out there, as Sting suplexes Cactus on the floor before rolling him back in.



Whips Cactus into the corner, follows with a Stinger Splash that Cactus dodges, but Sting anticipated the dodge and stopped himself from getting damaged there either. Instead, he transitions into positioning himself onto the ropes in some sort of flying attack that results in Cactus catching him and hanging him with a stun gun across the top rope.

Sting rolls outside, Cactus relentlessly goes back out at him, slams him on the floor and then executes his signature running elbow drop to the floor from the apron. Cactus, sensing victory, goes and gets a mic, asks Sting if he quits, and of course white meat babyface Sting yells, "Not a chance!" Foley sends him into the ring, again drapes him along the bottom rope, then grabs a chair to let him have it. Goes for the chair shot, Sting moves, the chair bounces off the rope and smacks Foley in the head instead. A stunned Foley staggers his way back to the apron, but Sting is ready for him with a dropkick. Foley takes a legit bump falling to the floor from the apron on that one.



Sting follows him out, then goes for the Scorpion Deathlock. Cactus seems to be out cold from the back of his head hitting the floor, and the referee calls the match off via submission since Foley is out.

Result: Sting via submission (12:55)

Meltzer Rating: ****1/4

My Review and Rating: Meh, this wasn't my thing. Whole thing felt kind of disjointed, felt like Sting didn't get nearly enough offense in given that Mick Foley's strength obviously lied more in taking a beating than administering a long beating. Given the way it was booked, the ending was sensible, as Sting winning in a pretty flukey way is far better than him suddenly going SuperCena, but in general this match was really short on interesting spots from my point of view. **3/4
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Old 07-12-2015, 12:59 PM   #216
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

Clash of the Champions XVIII: The Dangerous Alliance (Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton, Larry Zbyszko) w/ Paul E. Dangerously vs. Barry Windham, Ron Simmons, & Dustin Rhodes

Date: January 21, 1992

Link: http://network.wwe.com/video/v32366805

Background: I'm really not up on what the Dangerous Alliance angle really entailed. Mostly it just seemed to be a takeover by a Paul E. Dangerously stable who wanted to take down the top babyfaces in the company. This six-man featured three of the guys they were targeting.

The Match: Paul E. cuts a great pre-match promo promising that at least one person facing off with the Dangerous Alliance tonight would be done for good. That included Sting and Ricky Steamboat, who would be facing Rick Rude and Steve Austin in the main event. Jim Ross is on the call here. The Alliance enters first, the babyface team staggered out next. Barry Windham is last to the ring and tries to pick the fight immediately, chasing the Alliance members to the outside to clear the ring. The referee (same dude who reffed Sting vs. Cactus from the last writeup, but I still don't know his name) gets some order and forces two from each side to get to the apron.



We start on Windham vs. Eaton. Windham goes right for a whip and a back bodydrop, but ducks too early and Eaton capitalizes with a swinging neckbreaker. Eaton sets Windham up on the corner and delivers a superplex. Windham pops straight up and no-sells. Oh come on; Barry Windham as a no-seller? That's like Jeff Hardy doing a bearhug.

Eaton, impressed with his own move and unaware of the no-sell, gets caught by surprise when he turns around and eats a clothesline. And another one. And now it's Bobby being set up top for Windham's superplex. Eaton should have just shoot no-selled that on principle. Windham goes for a cover, gets two, Anderson breaks up the count and suddenly all six men are in the ring, and the three faces all have figure-four leglocks on the heels. And then within seconds, Arn eye-rakes his way out of the hold that he's in, and the other two pairs have their leglocks magically dissipate as well. Stuff like that just comes off too over-the-top choreographed for me.

Match settles in to Ron Simmons vs. Larry Zbyszko (apparently now being called "the Crusher") even though neither man possibly actually tagged in. Hammerlock by the Crusher puts Simmons down on his shoulders, but Simmons powers his way back up to his feet. As the referee is distracted, Arn enters to make it a double-team, but Simmons fights both of them off and then hits a running double shoulderblock that knocks both men over.



Eaton attempts to jump in at Simmons, Simmons catches him in a bearhug, but Anderson comes in for the double-team. Again Simmons fights off both, this time going for a double clothesline…he connects with Eaton, Arn ducks his, but Arn showboats about how clever he was to duck there and turns around to get press-slammed. Simmons tags out to Dustin, and Larry quickly tags out to Beautiful Bobby.

Eye gouge by Eaton quickly gets him to the advantage, but after a whip into the corner Dustin fights his way back out, plays a bit dirty with an eye gouge of his own and then blatantly throws Bobby over the top rope to the ramp as the referee's back is turned. As Eaton gets his footing, Dustin gets a running start from the ring and flies over the top rope with a clothesline. Nice spot; I didn't know Dustin was really able to do stuff like that in 1992.

We get both men tagging again, and now it's Zbyszko vs. Windham. Zbyszko attempts a piledriver, but can't quite get Windham up for it, and instead gets backdropped for his efforts. Eaton, not legal in the match, heads up top, but Windham knocks him off all the way to the floor. Arn is in illegally now to attack Windham from behind, but quickly falls victim to a Windham facebuster. Larry back in. Windham runs the ropes, makes a blind tag to Dustin Rhodes, and due to the blind tag Rhodes is able to catch Larry off-guard with a hard uppercut. Dustin sets up with a running start for another flying move, but misses everything, dives out over the top rope and lands hard on the ramp.



Bobby Eaton over to capitalize, picks and holds Dustin up as Paul E. runs in and hits Dustin in the gut with his 80s-sized cell phone. As Barry Windham starts to go at Paul E. for this, the action has returned to the ring, as Zbyszko is now in control of Rhodes. Tags to Anderson, who hits him with the signature spinebuster after a whip off the ropes. Only a two-count. Sets Rhodes up near the corner, goes for a…Vaderbomb (I don't know what that move is generically called), and Rhodes gets his knees up. Arn is hobbled, Dustin tries to capitalize, but Arn recovers quickly, goes behind, and plants him hard with a DDT. Loved, loved, loved Arn's DDTs.

Tag to Eaton, who enters with a bodyslam and then a top rope elbow. Two-count. Whip into the corner, follows up with a jumping attack that Rhodes avoids. Eaton is hurt, but is able to tag out to Anderson, who prevents Rhodes from doing likewise. Attempted elbow drop from second rope by Anderson, but again no good as this time he eats the raised boot by Rhodes instead. Dustin makes the hot tag to Windham.

Couple of flying clotheslines by the man from Sweetwater, a back bodydrop as well, but his momentum gets broken as Arn knees him from the outside as he comes off the ropes. This sends the match back into a six-man chaotic brawl. Eaton off the top, Windham catches him with a hard right on the way down, and amidst the chaos that's enough of a blow to enable him to pin for the 1-2-3.



Result: Windham, Simmons, & Rhodes via pinfall when Windham pins Eaton (9:28)

Meltzer Rating: ****

My Review and Rating: Nice pace, a number of decent spots, finish seemed kind of abrupt and happened on a garden-variety counter-punch that never pins anyone. Was a bit annoyed at how wrestlers just came and went as they pleased without the referee ever seeming to care, but whatever. Good match; wouldn't go as far as calling it great. ***1/4
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:10 PM   #217
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

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My Review and Rating: Meh, this wasn't my thing. Whole thing felt kind of disjointed, felt like Sting didn't get nearly enough offense in given that Mick Foley's strength obviously lied more in taking a beating than administering a long beating.
Foley actually talked Sting into letting him get this much offense in. Mick had just started in WCW. Sting asked him what he wanted to do in the match, and when Mick told him, Sting brought him into the shower and said something like "You want me, one of the top guys, to take that much offense from a guy that has hardly been on TV the last two years?" and eventually "Alright, we'll try it for a couple minutes, but if the crowd isn't into it, we will do what I want."

Anyway, Sting liked the results and was glad Foley actually had ideas, because very few of his opponents at the time did, so he kept letting Mick have an influence on how the match would go.

Last edited by moorobot; 07-12-2015 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:18 PM   #218
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

Thanks for that tidbit. It does make more sense as something that came from the wrestlers than if booking had set the match up to run that way. I still think it was the wrong way to do the match, but that's interesting.
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:28 PM   #219
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

Imagine if some heel nobody has heard of answers Cena's challenge and just takes a beating almost all match. It wouldn't really by a good way to setup a feud between the two. Foley getting a lot of offense setup the matches down the road and helped Foley seem like a legit threat to Sting for the feud. As an out of context match, sure, it might be more enjoyable to watch Sting on offense, but that wouldn't have got Foley over.
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:28 PM   #220
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

I havent read your six man Clash write up yet, but when Ron Simmons is the worst worker in a six man tag match Im guessing it going to be a good match
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:35 PM   #221
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

Come to think of it, today with the fans being much smarter and in a different situation, somebody taking a great ass whipping might get them over, but it wouldn't have 25 years ago. WCW had some great jobbers that took a hell of an ass whipping on a weekly basis.
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:38 PM   #222
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

Sounds by your write up that you did enjoy it, so maybe Ill check it out for myself. I will debate you real quick on one point you made. You claim you didnt like the finishing move, if we call it that, I think in some aspects of the business the WCW/NWA was still stuck in 70's were moves like that always finished matches. Harley Race's finisher was a vertical suplex. Rhodes beat Race for the championship with a cross body block. Could have also been a time thing too, but who knows
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Old 07-12-2015, 01:39 PM   #223
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

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Come to think of it, today with the fans being much smarter and in a different situation, somebody taking a great ass whipping might get them over, but it wouldn't have 25 years ago. WCW had some great jobbers that took a hell of an ass whipping on a weekly basis.
I think if booked right and as long as that wrestler showed a lot of effort, get his ass whopped night in and night out would definitely get over in the Northeast. Eventually he would have to start winning but if brought the right guy in and started him like that it could work
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:16 PM   #224
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

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Imagine if some heel nobody has heard of answers Cena's challenge and just takes a beating almost all match. It wouldn't really by a good way to setup a feud between the two. Foley getting a lot of offense setup the matches down the road and helped Foley seem like a legit threat to Sting for the feud. As an out of context match, sure, it might be more enjoyable to watch Sting on offense, but that wouldn't have got Foley over.
My objection isn't to him getting a decent amount of offense in; it's to him controlling the match. 50/50, with Foley refusing to quit in a couple of spots that other heels might, and then eventually only succumbing to something of a fluke in getting knocked out, is a great story.

This story is okay I guess, but if the circumstances are what you describe then I have to say that Jim Ross didn't sell the story well from the commentary table. He should be commenting on how surprising it is that Foley is taking it to Sting; he didn't. He should be commenting on the toughness Foley had, and talking about how he only lost because he was out cold; he didn't. It's a rare thing for me to find much to criticize about Jim Ross, but this doesn't seem like the best example of his work.
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:18 PM   #225
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Re: The Meltzer 4+-Star Match Review Thread

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Sounds by your write up that you did enjoy it, so maybe Ill check it out for myself. I will debate you real quick on one point you made. You claim you didnt like the finishing move, if we call it that, I think in some aspects of the business the WCW/NWA was still stuck in 70's were moves like that always finished matches. Harley Race's finisher was a vertical suplex. Rhodes beat Race for the championship with a cross body block. Could have also been a time thing too, but who knows
I just said it felt abrupt. This series of matches I've done has been very WCW/NWA-heavy, and it just doesn't seem like any of the matches have ended on such a weak spot before.

I'm all for pinning guys on a whole variety of non-finisher moves. I think it's far superior to the modern model of doing things. But an ending like that needs to be part of a pattern that the company is following, which from what I can tell they weren't doing at this time. If it's a total outlier to the usual booking of the time, it doesn't come off well.
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