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| Mortar and Brick An alternative universe. |
12-22-2011, 04:32 PM
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#16
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journeyman
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: California
Posts: 229
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor74
won't they have the chance to look at you look at the flop
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Well yes, but if it's your turn to act last, you're in control. You've already seen villain's reaction to the flop, and then his action (check or bet).
Yes, he'll watch you look at the flop and act, but you can control yourself. You can also make a lot of decisions before looking at the flop, e.g.
1. He's a weak player and didn't seem to like that flop, and then checked. I'll c-bet almost any flop.
2. He's a weak player, looked and then sat up out almost of his seat, then bet big. I'll probably fold without good odds.
3. He's a decent player, gave nothing away and then bet, or checked, or whatever. Now I need to look at the flop and act based on the all the information I have.
etc.
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12-22-2011, 05:49 PM
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#17
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: e^πi=-1
Posts: 5,751
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bav
Caro... has two sections, where one lists tells that means what they mean, and then in the next section he lists all the same tells where they mean the opposite. It's left as an exercise for the reader to determine which section of the book to apply to a particular tell.
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Caro says early on that these tells sort themselves into the two categories pretty neatly. The distinction is whether they are acting or not. Mediocre players doing something consciously will generally give off an "opposite" tell -- for example betting emphatically when bluffing. Subconscious tells tend to be "honest" -- eg glancing at your stack when your hand is very strong.
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12-22-2011, 06:40 PM
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#18
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HP JoY 2011 wienerbucket
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: ...
Posts: 20,279
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor74
Currently I am very quiet whenever I play. I never really talk to anyone unless spoken to.
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Work on THIS.
At a casino, most players are there to have a good time. They want to feel smart and powerful and in control. They are often escaping whatever it is that causes them stress at home. Give them what they want.
Be friendly, be outgoing. Be somebody that people enjoy having at the table. If you're less fun at the table than an empty seat, then they don't want you there. At least an empty seat doesn't take their chips.
You are not a poker COMPETITOR. That puts you on the same level, and it's not smart to play with people as good as you are. You are a poker PROPRIETOR. You are providing poker-themed entertainment, and your customers are paying you for your services.
If you can become the nice, gregarious, fun, happy guy at the table, then people will want to have you around. They'll want you to like them. They'll start soft-playing you. They'll call with weaker hands than they should. They'll TELL YOU how they play. And, most importantly, they'll tell you how they view YOUR PLAY.
This is FAR more valuable than being quiet and reserved and looking for facial tics. Information comes in many forms. Mirrored sunglasses are the opposite direction from where you should be headed.
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12-23-2011, 01:52 AM
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#19
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centurion
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: LA/LV
Posts: 109
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
has anybody else found themselves in a stare down heads up after the flop because youre both watching the other for a reaction and neither of you have looked at the flop?
good stuff.
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12-23-2011, 02:12 AM
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#20
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: We're all Lebowskis on this bus
Posts: 7,800
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
When that happens, the player who has position gets to ask the dealer, "Where's the action?"
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12-23-2011, 03:46 AM
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#21
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journeyman
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 346
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyMoose
Yes, the most useful tell is when you see players behind you ready to fold. Another tip -- don't watch the flop when the dealer spreads it out. Watch the other players. The cards aren't going to change. You can look at the flop later. There are two advantages: 1: you can't give away any reaction to the flop because you haven't seen it. 2: you can watch other players react to the flop. Most of the time you won't get much of a read, but some players react visibly and don't even realize it.
I love it when I'm in position and some villain is staring at me after the flop trying to get a read before he acts first. Most of the time I haven't even looked at the felt.
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This is an interesting post.
I have experimented with this a little, I find if the villian/s notice you are not looking at the flop but only at them it makes it harder for them to bet especially as a bluff. Also if I see someone doing this to me on the flop it screams pre flop strenth especially if there are multiple villians. also i notice if it is done on a later street it can often mean a strong made hand when the next card could easily be a scare. if i am on a draw and i see this from the other player and my draw comes in i am more inclined to put out a larger bet because i think he has a big peice of it an the other hand i am less inclined to bluff the river when i miss if i see this.
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12-23-2011, 07:09 AM
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#22
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vegas
Posts: 7,719
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick
When that happens, the player who has position gets to ask the dealer, "Where's the action?"
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I generally use "you're first to act--you're gonna have to look at that river before I do" directed straight to the other player. And that has actually gotten a player to check blind to me without looking at the board, just to prove me wrong. So that's surely +EV.
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12-23-2011, 01:43 PM
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#23
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grinder
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bramalea, ON
Posts: 540
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
I have a friend who could have posed for Caro . . . his behaviour is verbatim from the pages of Mike's book. So much fun ranging his hands for him based on how he has bet. What makes it better is that he has no clue what I am doing to come to those conclusions.
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12-23-2011, 07:05 PM
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#24
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enthusiast
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 65
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyMoose
Well yes, but if it's your turn to act last, you're in control. You've already seen villain's reaction to the flop, and then his action (check or bet).
Yes, he'll watch you look at the flop and act, but you can control yourself. You can also make a lot of decisions before looking at the flop, e.g.
1. He's a weak player and didn't seem to like that flop, and then checked. I'll c-bet almost any flop.
2. He's a weak player, looked and then sat up out almost of his seat, then bet big. I'll probably fold without good odds.
3. He's a decent player, gave nothing away and then bet, or checked, or whatever. Now I need to look at the flop and act based on the all the information I have.
etc.
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This is very informative. I am going to start implementing this in my play now. Should I be doing this when people are receiving their hole cards as well?
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12-23-2011, 07:25 PM
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#25
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enthusiast
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 65
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
This actually makes a lot of sense and I will do my best to be more open and talkative to other players.
In regards to the spoiler.
Thank you for the warning but..
I don't play poker as a serious source of income. I was working 20 + hours a week and taking 18 hours of class in college and did not go up to my local casino or play in home games because I did not have the time. I know my priorities and school is first. Also, I hang out with my friends regularly. Poker is for fun for me, but of course, being a more intelligent player and increasing my ability to have a winning session are important to me. Also, I am an athletic individual who partakes in many sports.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pfapfap
Work on THIS.
At a casino, most players are there to have a good time. They want to feel smart and powerful and in control. They are often escaping whatever it is that causes them stress at home. Give them what they want.
Be friendly, be outgoing. Be somebody that people enjoy having at the table. If you're less fun at the table than an empty seat, then they don't want you there. At least an empty seat doesn't take their chips.
You are not a poker COMPETITOR. That puts you on the same level, and it's not smart to play with people as good as you are. You are a poker PROPRIETOR. You are providing poker-themed entertainment, and your customers are paying you for your services.
If you can become the nice, gregarious, fun, happy guy at the table, then people will want to have you around. They'll want you to like them. They'll start soft-playing you. They'll call with weaker hands than they should. They'll TELL YOU how they play. And, most importantly, they'll tell you how they view YOUR PLAY.
This is FAR more valuable than being quiet and reserved and looking for facial tics. Information comes in many forms. Mirrored sunglasses are the opposite direction from where you should be headed.
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12-23-2011, 09:29 PM
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#26
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centurion
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 131
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
While I don't usually sit at a table and try to uncover any specific "Caro tells" that I have read, I do remember two interesting spots only because these tells were SUPER obvious:
1. One time a guy pushed all in on the river. Now, normally this cat was quiet and calm all night, all of a sudden he became very fidgety and talkative, took off his sweat jacket...talking in short bits and phrases...jerky movement..weird facial gestures. The guy across the table went into the tank and I'm sitting there mentally screaming, "call, call, call! Your pair of aces is good!" Eventually the guy folded, ace queen up (ace on the board) and the all-in guy showed his bluff before mucking.
2. Recently I was with my friend, who doesn't get out much to the casinos. I took him to a 1-2 table when this hand came up. Flop is A Q J, (preflop raise) and the initial raiser throws out a C-bet. The guy two to my right just smooth calls. I lean over to my buddy and whisper to him that the guy to my right has a MONSTER hand! My friend asks, "How can you tell?" I tell him to simply watch him, tell me what you see.
After a few seconds my friend can barely contain his laughter telling me, "You're right...I have a lot to learn." I gave him the advice of looking at your opponent more than your cards in a hand. The tell:
This guy would NOT stop peeking at his cards the entire hand. He had the Oh snap, I just flopped a monster and I can't believe it! It's Christmas time!! look on his face. The dealer would burn a card, dude peeked at his hand. Dealer put out the turn card, dude peeked at his hand, guy bets, dude peeked.....well you get the point. And of course, the typical call, call, well NOW I'll raise the river bet!! It was WAY to obvious.
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12-24-2011, 12:44 PM
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#27
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adept
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,128
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
^^ I'd imagine 1. could also apply to someone holding a monster hand and 2. to someone on a big str8 fl draw.
The thing is most tells like these aren't always the same result and the meaning can vary from person to person. Don't rely on these tells as gold if you don't know the player or have history of what the tell means. Don't get me wrong - it is a tell, but you need to work out what it means. It's microexpressions and body language that are more generic.
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12-24-2011, 10:21 PM
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#28
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enthusiast
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 65
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
So would you guys recommend looking at my hole cards as little as possible throughout the entire hand ?
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12-24-2011, 11:11 PM
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#29
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grinder
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 416
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor74
So would you guys recommend looking at my hole cards as little as possible throughout the entire hand ?
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With one exception...
If you know you've flopped a flush, look anyway. Whenever there is a suited flop everyone checks their cards again to see if they have one of that suit. Not checking your cards and playing it aggressively tells me you've hit it. Checking your cards and aggressively playing it tells me you have the A or K of that suit and are still drawing.
Of course I'm sure others will come up with other exceptions as well, but this one jumped out at me.
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12-25-2011, 12:13 AM
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#30
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enthusiast
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 65
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Re: What tells do you notice about other players?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromACtoLV
With one exception...
If you know you've flopped a flush, look anyway. Whenever there is a suited flop everyone checks their cards again to see if they have one of that suit. Not checking your cards and playing it aggressively tells me you've hit it. Checking your cards and aggressively playing it tells me you have the A or K of that suit and are still drawing.
Of course I'm sure others will come up with other exceptions as well, but this one jumped out at me.
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Noted, thank you very much.
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