How does one go about getting a position like this in a casino?

How much does one get paid while "proping"?

Is a prop considered a casino employee?

Is proping ethical?

Just some questions because I've always thought proping would be a kush gig.

Any thoughts?

Kush gig?

hmm

I'm actually sort of shocked this isn't getting some traction here.

Calling all props...

Thats what I said. Im thinking it has something to do with my " noob " status. I could be wrong.

My prediction is this topic will be highjacked, reworded, and given legitimacy by a high post counter.

Havent seen any posts to this forum show up on "new posts" either. I could be missing someting..

I doubt that more than a few people are reading this forum; it's more likely that nobody who's got something worth saying has seen it.

I'm not a prop, but I'll pass on what I know.

How does one go about getting a position like this in a casino?
The answer likely varies by casino. Some places won't consider hiring you if you're a regular (why should they, you're there anyway), but some places won't consider hiring you if they haven't seen you around and playing (why should they, you could be an irresponsible degen). Some people have suggested just going to the casino and simply asking a prop or a manager. I know at least some advertise their positions online or on various job sites; you may have to search under "casino host" or "poker room host" or something like that.

How much does one get paid while "proping"?
It varies by what games you're willing to play. The bigger the game you're willing to play, the more you get paid. I'm told that the exact values are semi-secret, so I'll be respectful of the places I know and just say anywhere from $15-$40/hr. However, one perk is that you're able to deduct from that a certain amount that you pay in rake, so a good chunk of it will end up being tax-free.

Is a prop considered a casino employee?
Yes, or at least, all the ones I know are. They are bound by the rules, regulations and benefits that all casino employees have, including drug tests and background checks and sexual harassment seminars and worker's compensation. Props punch in and out and can be fired and/or censured.

Is proping ethical?
Not entirely sure what this means, but it's not like you're expected to give customers handjobs in the bathroom or anything if that's what you're worried about. It's a pretty simple business transaction: the casinos are paying you to get games going and keep them going when without your services the games would not exist. Unless you have a problem with gambling establishments allowing people to gamble, I don't see an ethics problem.

Edit: It just occurred to me that you might be thinking of shills, which are not only casino employees at the table, but are actually gambling with casino money. Props play with their own money and are almost always identified by employee badges, so there's no deception going on.

Any thoughts?
One thing that people might not realize is that by propping, you tend to give up any choice in game selection. Your employer may pull you out of a great game to give your seat to a customer; your employer may force you to play LHE if you're a NL player or NL if you're a LHE player; you may be playing shorthanded at stakes you're only comfortable playing FR at; you may be playing stakes so low the game is unbeatable. You may not get to play at all. You will probably start off on graveyard shift. The privileges of a prop when not actively saving games varies wildly, and it's something you should be super-clear about before taking a job.

You are correct, I did confuse the two. It still seems both shill and prop are good gigs if you can get them.Thanks for posting.

1. Shills may be a thing of the past.

2. I strongly recommend you re-read the last paragraph I wrote. While propping may be a good gig for some people, it's almost certainly overrated. Typically (and maybe this is you) someone enjoys playing poker and is winning money, and thinks, "Sweet! I get paid to play poker!" The reality is that:

(a) Casual players often underestimate how bad it's possible to run. Poker players suffer from "survivor bias," which essentially means the people who had bad luck to begin with quickly quit, so almost everyone who is currently playing started off by winning money. As a result, people think they're bigger winners than they are, and more people think they're winners than are actual winners.

(b) Compounding this problem is "selection bias" which means that as a recreational player, you get to play at your ideal times at your ideal spots. When you transition to a professional, you are put in the worst games and sometimes at your worst times. You will almost certainly start off on graveyard shift when you start off - try staying up all night playing in a relatively bad game, and then imagine doing that every night.

(c) Remember that as a prop, you will get no sympathy from the casino. You are expected to be a bottomless pit of money, and to be honest, the casino has incentive to hire fishy props over sharky props. At some point you will likely be told to grow a pair and keep playing in a game where you're overwhelmed and short on funds. You need to be able to deal with that.

I would strongly recommend getting advice from some actual props before you get your hopes up. Jesse8888 is the first that comes to mind, only because I know he's a good guy and pretty honest about his experiences. He has a blog, but I'm not sure how he feels about me advertising it (you can find it if you try hard enough). He talks extensively about the ups and downs of propping and being a pro in general - he was a computer programmer / recreational poker player, then a pro, then a prop, and then a pro, and then a prop again.

Totally agree with all you say.

I do not consider myself a "recreational player" though.

I tend not to promote "tapping the glass", so I respectfully decline to elaborate on my proclamation.

I do appreciate your taking time to respond to my post.

I apologize, I should have said : " fun/cool job ".

Sometimes the hippie in me just can't control himself.

yeah no probs.

From what I know - I have heard there are huge disadvantages to propping. Most now outlined.

So if kush = cushey = cushion = soft - hmmm I dont think so.

Good luck if you try it.

If you aren't already playing full-time, props are "free" to the casino, in that they pay the same rake as everyone else.

Think of a prop job as getting rakeback, but losing your ability to pick and choose your tables -- or at least a great reduction in your choice of tables.

Not really. If the prop were not there to win the pot, someone else would win it and pay the rake.

Props are still a good value for the casino though. I don't understand why the Cali cardrooms, which are often packed around the clock, use them but Vegas does not.

Props certainly pay timed rake, and more players = more rake, no matter how you slice it. One prop is often enough to get an extra table going -- or at a minimum, one 1/10th of the time...

Props can consider their hourly wage rakeback and little else.

He's making a drug reference but yea he means "job with excessive positive qualities"

You've got me curious now, how much do they pay those employees?

lulz :

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...ayers-1126748/

What a coincidence (minus the post count thing)!!

Why do I feel this forum may turn into a virtual tug of war with over there?

As someone who's propped about 2 years on a graveyard shift, I'd agree with pretty much everything callipygian wrote. I'd say 90% of the guys we've hired either go busto in a couple months (either from poor playing, bad money/bankroll management, or degen blackjack escapades). I'm actually convinced there are at least half of the remaining 10% who've just had super long periods of run-good. That said, for a few, it seems to be a really enjoyable way to pay the bills.


Oh...and for anyone who does want to prop, be prepared to be hated by a large enough percentage of players that you have to hear about it on an almost daily basis.

I've propped before. I think most of what's been written is pretty accurate.

1. Some rooms use props, some do not. It's easy to simply ask and find out.
2. You can look at the money in one of two ways. If you're used to playing online, it's more like rakeback. If you're a live player, with a solid bankroll, you can think of it as a job with a fixed income. Anything you win at poker is "extra." This really helps if you're having a losing session.
3. Most props do go broke after a short period of time. I think that there are several reasons for that. Inadequate bankroll, house games, lack of discipline, inexperience playing full-time hours, and a lack of skill.
4. Table/room selection sucks. You'll get pulled off of juicy tables, and forced to play short unbeatable tables often. Make it clear what games you'll be expected to play.
5. Regular players will figure out that you're a prop pretty quickly. This can be very awkward. As you may have guessed players will feel like you're playing with house money. They will often think that if they beat you, they should get some reward. They will bring it up constantly.
6. It's important to establish your own set of rules for how you play other props at the same table. If you soft-play it's unethical and will quickly be noticed by the other players. That is not good. Frequently props will play hands "straight up" against each other. Or, will essentially play limit poker in no-limit games.
7. I know a former prop that played out West. His room "forced" all their props to have a certain bankroll level that was kept in their box at the casino. Depending on the bankroll level, you were put in certain games.

Where do props even exist anymore? I seriously have never run into one. They just in Cali now?

We've got "hosts" here in Arizona, which are, for lack of a better term, props.

If you're a live player you know $12 per hour rakeback is as good as it's gonna get.

Seriously?

Seriously?!?

Not sure what u mean.

Minding other peoples business + being vocal about it on a public forum is a bit douchie to me...what do I know?

If someone doesnt want to pay taxes, its not for me to judge, or tell what to do....and no one has the right to do so...period. Who really cares? Just my 2 cents.

People who (a) participate in society, and (b) don't pay their fair share are, socially speaking, thieves and deadbeats.

"Thanks for paying for this road, bitches."

So, to relate this to the topic at hand - because I'd hate to be moderated for being off-topic - you have to consider the $10/hr from this promotion like any other sort of income. I'd be curious if the casino is under some sort of obligation to provide a statement of income if they pay more than $600 to a player, or whatever the income threshold is for contract employees.

For the reasons Palimax pointed out - your failure to pay taxes increases my tax burden - it really is my business whether other citizens are paying their taxes or not.

For some reasons Palimax did not point out - failure to pay taxes now will force you into laundering the money at a loss later if you wish to eventually use your money for legitimate purposes - it may be a good thing for you (regardless of whose business it is) to pay taxes now and let the money grow with interest.

I believe David Sklansky wrote a piece on this issue but I'm unable to find it at the moment. Basically, he argues that if you win X amount and pay Y taxes but can invest it at Z rate, eventually the compounded interest overcomes not paying taxes and not being able to invest it, so if you plan to win a lot of money for a long time, it's rational to pay taxes.

But putting all that aside, there's the very practical matter that if you plan on doing something illegal, you really shouldn't be plastering it up on a public board. The vast majority of boards, including B&M and Poker Legislation, have pretty strict rules about advocating any sort of illegal behavior, whether it is tax evasion, laundering money, obtaining chemical substances, etc.

I strongly suggest you read through the Poker Legislation FAQ. There is a specific section on incorporating.

PL FAQ:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57...ts-faq-740589/

Russ Fox on S-corps (linked from the FAQ but if you're lazy just read this post):
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...8&postcount=10