Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > General Poker Discussion > Mortar and Brick

Notices

Mortar and Brick An alternative universe.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-24-2011, 07:07 PM   #26
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 149
Ill continue this derail I suppose. I found this kind of interesting:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/econom...ent/50676912/1

Specifically the part where it says most of the people that avoid paying income taxes fall within the $75k-$100k/yr range.

Im no expert, but I would imagine that there are exponentialy more $75-$100k earners in this country then those who are WINNING casino gamblers. I think you have your eye on the wrong people not contributing to our infrastructure through taxation people.

Also thank you for link on LLC/S corp. Good read. Fortunately, I am considered a private contractor in the golf business so I guess I will be incorporating as such...not as a pro poker player.

**Disclaimer **: I do not promote, endorse, nor criticize/judge OTHERS choices to participate in illegal activities, or THEIR choice to post about said illegal activities (intentional or not) on a public forum.

Last edited by IseizeDeadMonies; 11-24-2011 at 07:30 PM.
IseizeDeadMonies is offline  
Old 11-24-2011, 11:39 PM   #27
Livin' the dream as a Carpal \'Tunnel
 
The Palimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,637
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IseizeDeadMonies View Post
Im no expert, but I would imagine that there are exponentialy more $75-$100k earners in this country then those who are WINNING casino gamblers. I think you have your eye on the wrong people not contributing to our infrastructure through taxation people.
Does it help you sleep better at night to think that you're not alone in wanting to cheat the rest of us? Pay your share like (most of) the rest of us.
The Palimax is offline  
Old 11-24-2011, 11:58 PM   #28
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 149
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

At what point in any of my posts did I say I wanted to avoid paying taxes? If incorporating is a way to avoid paying taxes, I can assure you that isnt the reason I am considering doing so.

Do you know what assuming does?

My original gripe was with someone minding anothers business....which is valid
IseizeDeadMonies is offline  
Old 11-25-2011, 12:07 AM   #29
Poker Room Rep
 
MSUspartan4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Treasure Island Las Vegas
Posts: 153
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by livegrinder View Post
Everytime I look in the TI poker room, you have 1-2 tables running. Is this still true? Or is there a lot more now?
During the week, that's still the case. Based on the feedback from the upcoming promotion, that is definitely going to change on January 1st.
MSUspartan4 is offline  
Old 11-25-2011, 12:36 AM   #30
Livin' the dream as a Carpal \'Tunnel
 
The Palimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,637
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IseizeDeadMonies View Post
My original gripe was with someone minding anothers business....which is valid
You recognize these are discussion forums, right - where we openly discuss things, like the potential tax obligations on these sorts of promotions? "Mind your own business" doesn't go far on discussion boards. DUCY?

So, I say: Lighten up.

If you're going to pay your taxes, that's great; it's nice to have you in the club.
The Palimax is offline  
Old 11-28-2011, 03:07 PM   #31
slowrolled by tpiranha!
 
callipygian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: but I don't know which
Posts: 16,022
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IseizeDeadMonies View Post
I found this kind of interesting:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/econom...ent/50676912/1

Specifically the part where it says most of the people that avoid paying income taxes fall within the $75k-$100k/yr range.
You should read that more carefully. The article reads, "Those making $75,000-$100,000 a year are the fastest-growing share of people who don't pay federal income taxes." It goes on to specifically state, "The lowest-income Americans - those who make less than $25,000 a year - account for the largest number of those not paying any federal income tax: 76% as of 2009."

There are plenty of people who don't pay tax. But for most of them, it's because they're following the law, not because they're breaking it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IseizeDeadMonies View Post
Also thank you for link on LLC/S corp. Good read. Fortunately, I am considered a private contractor in the golf business so I guess I will be incorporating as such...not as a pro poker player.
I'm not entirely sure that you can incorporate as a golf contractor plus pro poker player. My guess is that, you would be, in the eyes of the IRS, a golf contractor and an amateur poker player on the side, no different than if you had a regular salary job and were an amateur poker player on the side.

I would check with a tax attorney on what's best for you and not take advice from anyone on the Internet, including me.
callipygian is offline  
Old 11-28-2011, 07:26 PM   #32
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 149
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
You should read that more carefully.
I read the article thoroughly. I was referring to the part that was about 13 paragraphs down, not the very first paragraph which you are referring... which is here:

Quote:
But the percentage of increase was even bigger for higher wage earners. Nontaxable returns from people with income between $75,000 and $100,000 went from 4,025 in 1996 to 476,624 in 2009 -- an increase of almost 12,000%. More than 1,400 millionaires didn't pay income taxes in 2009 either.
Again, I'm sure there isn't even 1% of 476,624 WINNING casino gambooolers and stand by my opinion that your barking up the wrong tree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
I'm not entirely sure that you can incorporate as a golf contractor plus pro poker player.
I didn't say both...just golf. And part of my golf business is having to stop at my local casino on my way home to participate in a wonderful promotion Mr. Horning has at TI. Filled under traveling expenses.. hehe, jk obv.

Last edited by IseizeDeadMonies; 11-28-2011 at 07:29 PM. Reason: spell
IseizeDeadMonies is offline  
Old 11-28-2011, 07:47 PM   #33
Livin' the dream as a Carpal \'Tunnel
 
The Palimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,637
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

I'm all for a minimum of topic-drift, but let's summarize this side point and move on with the pros and cons of being a proposition player:
Participating in this "get paid to play" program may incur you additional taxable liability. Be responsible, pay your taxes, and consult a gambling/self-employment tax specialist.
The Palimax is offline  
Old 11-28-2011, 09:00 PM   #34
slowrolled by tpiranha!
 
callipygian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: but I don't know which
Posts: 16,022
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Palimax View Post
I'm all for a minimum of topic-drift, but let's summarize this side point and move on with the pros and cons of being a proposition player:
Participating in this "get paid to play" program may incur you additional taxable liability. Be responsible, pay your taxes, and consult a gambling/self-employment tax specialist.
I don't think that summarizes the side point at all. There's no debate as to whether participation in the TI program is taxable or not. I don't even think there's even a debate about whether poker winnings are taxable or not. The debate is entirely as to whether someone can advocate tax evasion/fraud, specifically, whether the fact that others do it is a mitigating factor.

If you want to end the discussion or banish it to its own thread, I'm okay with that, but I'm going to post some thoughts in the moderation thread just because this is a new forum.
callipygian is offline  
Old 11-28-2011, 11:47 PM   #35
Livin' the dream as a Carpal \'Tunnel
 
The Palimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,637
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
There's no debate as to whether participation in the TI program is taxable or not
Consult a tax professional.

I'm simply saying that we can all agree you should pay your taxes if they're owed - and propping, though this program or others may cause you to owe taxes.

Discussing not paying said taxes shouldn't be discussed here - or anywhere, if you're smart.

---

Lets return to the topic of propping in general and its pros and cons; plus anything any real, live props might have to provide.
The Palimax is offline  
Old 11-29-2011, 03:04 AM   #36
old hand
 
PokerZombie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 1,459
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

LoL I was enjoying the tax conversation more :P
Wish I could head to TI for that though... damn good deal, altough playing against 2+2 regs for 40 hrs/wk might bankrupt me even with +$400/wk
PokerZombie is offline  
Old 11-29-2011, 07:15 PM   #37
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
MitchL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 8,521
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Propping is not unethical, esp since they are required to wear a badge in most municipalities in Cali, but I have played in sh high stakes games with 3 other props who kept checking down when they got in hands together. My friend and I were the only non-props in the game and we were playing super hard against each other. They had the audacity to get mad when we asked them politely to stop soft-playing. Wouldve gotten up and broken the game if they werent so lolbad.
MitchL is offline  
Old 12-01-2011, 12:34 AM   #38
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,465
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IseizeDeadMonies View Post
Thats what I said. Im thinking it has something to do with my " noob " status. I could be wrong.

My prediction is this topic will be highjacked, reworded, and given legitimacy by a high post counter.
No it had to do with me never visiting this forum until now. I will read the thread and respond likely 4 or 5 times.
jesse8888 is offline  
Old 12-01-2011, 12:36 AM   #39
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,465
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IseizeDeadMonies View Post
How does one go about getting a position like this in a casino?

How much does one get paid while "proping"?

Is a prop considered a casino employee?

Is proping ethical?

Just some questions because I've always thought proping would be a kush gig.

Any thoughts?
Find out who is in charge and speak with him. He'll either need people desperately or not be hiring.

Pay varies. The higher you play, the higher your pay.

Yes you're a casino employee and yes it's ethical. I can't understand how either of these could even cause confusion.
jesse8888 is offline  
Old 12-01-2011, 12:38 AM   #40
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,465
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
1. Shills may be a thing of the past.

2. I strongly recommend you re-read the last paragraph I wrote. While propping may be a good gig for some people, it's almost certainly overrated. Typically (and maybe this is you) someone enjoys playing poker and is winning money, and thinks, "Sweet! I get paid to play poker!" The reality is that:

(a) Casual players often underestimate how bad it's possible to run. Poker players suffer from "survivor bias," which essentially means the people who had bad luck to begin with quickly quit, so almost everyone who is currently playing started off by winning money. As a result, people think they're bigger winners than they are, and more people think they're winners than are actual winners.

(b) Compounding this problem is "selection bias" which means that as a recreational player, you get to play at your ideal times at your ideal spots. When you transition to a professional, you are put in the worst games and sometimes at your worst times. You will almost certainly start off on graveyard shift when you start off - try staying up all night playing in a relatively bad game, and then imagine doing that every night.

(c) Remember that as a prop, you will get no sympathy from the casino. You are expected to be a bottomless pit of money, and to be honest, the casino has incentive to hire fishy props over sharky props. At some point you will likely be told to grow a pair and keep playing in a game where you're overwhelmed and short on funds. You need to be able to deal with that.

I would strongly recommend getting advice from some actual props before you get your hopes up. Jesse8888 is the first that comes to mind, only because I know he's a good guy and pretty honest about his experiences. He has a blog, but I'm not sure how he feels about me advertising it (you can find it if you try hard enough). He talks extensively about the ups and downs of propping and being a pro in general - he was a computer programmer / recreational poker player, then a pro, then a prop, and then a pro, and then a prop again.
Calli has his **** together as usual.
jesse8888 is offline  
Old 12-01-2011, 12:38 AM   #41
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,465
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig4bill View Post
Not really. If the prop were not there to win the pot, someone else would win it and pay the rake.
This makes no sense whatsoever.
jesse8888 is offline  
Old 12-01-2011, 12:42 AM   #42
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,465
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by livegrinder View Post
Everytime I look in the TI poker room, you have 1-2 tables running. Is this still true? Or is there a lot more now?
Do they still have that girl who was possibly the hottest human being I have ever seen up close and personal other than maybe the one HG scanner girl who seems to be gone? Cause I'll prop that place for that....
jesse8888 is offline  
Old 12-01-2011, 12:48 AM   #43
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,465
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Everything was pretty much covered and then we talked about taxes. The way it works when you prop is that some portion of your wage (anywhere from like 1/3rd up to like 3/4ths from what I've seen) doesn't end up on your W2 and is considered reimbursement for expenses. Your employer took money directly out of your pocket as a result of you performing your job function; it'd be like taking a taxi to a client's site, I guess. Sorta.

I've been told you're supposed to report that income on your own, but am pretty sure nobody does.

In closing I will say two things. First, finding a good propping job is one way to make playing poker for a living way less stressful and to feel like you're a part of a community. Finding a bad one will make you go insane. Quickly. And second...my employer is paying 20/40 players $10/hour and 40/80 players $20/hour starting tomorrow. Actually I guess starting in 3 hours. So come gambool with me.
jesse8888 is offline  
Old 12-14-2011, 04:57 PM   #44
grinder
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 442
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

I'm looking to be a prop. Hoping I will get paid $60-75 an hour for playing $1/2 nlh for about 20 hours a week
ICUScoobyDoo is offline  
Old 12-14-2011, 06:42 PM   #45
slowrolled by tpiranha!
 
callipygian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: but I don't know which
Posts: 16,022
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ICUScoobyDoo View Post
I'm looking to be a prop. Hoping I will get paid $60-75 an hour for playing $1/2 nlh for about 20 hours a week
This seems unrealistically high. Not even the 30/60 LHE props I know get paid that much per hour.
callipygian is offline  
Old 12-14-2011, 08:15 PM   #46
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 499
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
This seems unrealistically high. Not even the 30/60 LHE props I know get paid that much per hour.

JayJune is offline  
Old 12-28-2011, 03:05 PM   #47
Livin' the dream as a Carpal \'Tunnel
 
The Palimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,637
Re: "Prop"... To be or not to be ; Questions about wot seems to be a kush job (2 me)

Issues specific to the Treasure Island promotion have been moved to a GENERAL THREAD regarding the Treasure Island Hotel and Casino. Please continue Treasure Island related discussion there.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/20...vegas-1145372/
The Palimax is offline  

 
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online