To be clear, lighten up a little and get rid of the nit picky crap mean the same thing to me. I hope no one expects this to be a place where you can just act like a tard and not be held accountable.

I like how you are taking charge. And I start to regret some of my low content posts already.

I think it's clear this entire subforum is a giant laser pointer, which informs my opinion that it needs minimal moderation, and certainly no guidelines sticky or anything of the sort. If people come in to blast or troll, nip it, but it's a playground for B&M exiles and like minds. I'm pretty sure we can all get along together, and won't get ruffled if respectfully asked to pull it back here and there.

I think the overall rule of "don't be a jerk" should cover pretty much anything. If we trust in the moderator, we don't need the fine print. I'm happy to fall back on "it depends" as a guiding force regarding what is or isn't appropriate. I trust in the moderator.

As someone on the service side of real live M&B venues, I feel that less is more. Those who need everything spelled out will never be satisfied, and those who don't will only be frustrated. I view this entire subforum as an extended discussion of the appropriateness of having the forum reflect the tone and approach of that which it promotes and represents.

I think you just pulled off the defining post of this forum.

pfapfap for mod obv.

Exactly. I don't think this needs to be filled to the brim with +1 and pictures of lolcats. This should, in short, look a lot like the existing B&M sub-forum but with a little more slack on our collective leashes.

It needs guidelines and a sticky. I'll keep them minimal, but people ARE going to have to follow some basic rules beyond not being idiots. For reference, the existing published B&M rules are fairly minimal. They don't actually ask too much of us. It's all a matter of how those rules are followed. They leave a lot of room for interpretation.

...and yes, a lot of things will be judged by context or on a case-by-base basis.

And, again, PLEASE keep discussion regarding the reasoning behind the forums located in ATF. Any issues about the WHY of this forum belong there. Lets keep this thread focused on the HOW.

I think you are doing a fine job so far. I'm mostly an oot and 4£ poster, so let me know if I get carried away(drunk). My main concern is how to draw some good posters in here without them feeling like they might be 'attacked' by someone (me) trying to make a joke joke but in reality just being offensive.

i have no idea what this means

Okay, fair enough. Just trying to give a foundation for my perspective, but I suppose was can assume that as read.

I don't think it would be. I think many of the issues surrounding B&M have to do with it feeling like it's a black & white yes/no zone, where any deviation may or may not be met with harsh punishment.

If, instead, you foster a sense of community, then the little stuff takes care of itself. If we feel like we're working together as part of a greater whole, then we collectively take responsibility for ensuring it's a nice place.

It's the difference between a bare underpass and one with a mural from artists within the community. The latter hardly ever gets tagged, while the former is usually covered with sloppy spraypaint. A little bit of empowerment goes a long way.

I'll take a look in that posting, but... well, do they? Very few B&M rooms have explicit rules listed right at the top, and yet they get along well. When someone is removed, the problem child isn't shown a specific rulebook, but merely informed that the behavior is inappropriate.

We're a self-selected group of people interested in a live, in-person method of interaction. We know how to behave. We're all on the same side here.

It's like when I was killing myself looking for what specific violation I could cite in order to remove a problem child from my home game. In the end, I realized I never would have one, because those who like to cause trouble know how to do so in those angle-shooting gray areas, and push the boundaries juuuuust far enough. All I really had to say was, "You don't belong here; goodbye." Worked like a charm. The vast majority of people don't need any guidelines whatsoever. We're living in a society.

I feel this talking point might get too far into the "WHY" for your tastes, but it's something you mentioned, so please forgive me. If this is some kind of "experiment", then what is gained by being slightly different? Didn't we do that already when Rapini went on vacation? If you want your ATF words to hold weight, is there interest in making a more radical departure? If we can demonstrate that a completely different method of community-driven moderation can work, would that not give your original "gipe" more weight? Maybe, maybe not. Just throwing it out there, not attempting to challenge or argue.

Again, sorry if you don't mean to get into that here, but I think the two questions are somewhat intertwined. It is your forum, and I'm happy to see it and support it however you feel to shepherd it. I'm merely offering opinions to be weighed along side other, also 100% valid, opinions.

Remember, this is a pro-discussion zone.

Rapini for world leader!

Seriously though. The forum is called Playground: Mortar & Brick and is hidden like a ******ed hermaphrodite stepchild at the bottom of the forums. WTF does Playground even mean? If its B&M without Rapini then yawn to that. In my B&M there is a drunk guy who yells at every one and one time I saw a midget hit a lady in the face and I'm not kidding. Most of the time we have a good time and there is plenty of banter at the tables. My two cents. I'm an idiot.

I think you are doing both yourself and the forum a disservice by drawing this hard line. The reason we are here is because of the way Rapini mismoderates B&M. It's a big part of our collective experience. It will erupt again and again, and quashing it will make the the next eruption more severe. It's the elephant in the room, this room.

Do yourself a favor and read Clay Shirky's essay, "A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy." (Actually, I think everyone who runs any sort of online forum should read this.)

The key is to have the mod know something about b/m poker so that they can actually be a good judge as to whether a post is helpful or not. Rapini might be a good guy just trying to do his job but too much stuff just flys over his head so he assumes its trolling or w/e.

Re: flaming, abuse and trolling.

I think you should be more liberal than what was done in other forums and what is described earlier itt.

I think you should be more harsh with trolling of noobish posters in any forum BUT I think between regulars be they long timers or lots of posts - then I would take a more liberal approach.
Now if it is particularly one-sided - and the side that is not flaming etc takes offense and makes it known either by PM to the other person or ITT and calls enough is enough - and it continues then that should be treated harshly.

+ I think if it hijacks someone elses thread and they say get out - then I think that should be treated harshly.

But if it is a free-for-all thread and/or between regulars - then I think mods should just but out and let them go at each other if they choose to.
There is always the ignore button and if it remains contained then who cares?

hope that makes sense enough to become the norm.

Aren't the how and why intertwined, as pfapfap has said? So far, my take on this is that you want a forum that is basically the same as Brick and Mortar is now, but without Rapini as moderator.

What are you going to do when someone (and someone will inevitably come along) who is as stubborn with you as you are with Rapini?

Seems like this is a matter of degree, not a real difference, and therefore doomed from the get-go. Sure, you'll be happy because you're in charge and get to make the rules.

But - no matter where you draw the lines, there will be some who disagree and want different/looser moderating. What then?

Seriously, Palimax, what are you hoping to accomplish here? Frankly, I don't get it.

Lee

Lee, first off, thank you fir the kind words in the ATF thread. It was a refreshing break, to say the least.

While I share many of the thoughts leading to your sentiments, I feel we should be supportive of Palimax with this situation he has thrust upon him. I respectfully request that everyone try to think in terms of "yes, and..." rather than "no, but..." I know that's rich coming from me, but I'm attempting to offer an opinion on how to make it work, rather than stating that it flat-out won't. I am here to support Palimax in whatever form is required, despite the nature or ultimate fate of this bizarre little experiment.

So far, it seems to be turning out rather interestingly, and while it may not take the shape that you, I, or even Palimax may have envisioned, I think it's worthy of running with and supporting. Not everything need fit into a tidy little box. :-/

This is, of course, just IMO. I don't think there's any right/wrong here.

Regarding the rules: It's a good edit, I'm just not sure it's needed. We're a small and respectful community at present. I think we understand each other. Let's see how we run without a leash.

So with that in mind, I respectfully submit my take. This isn't an edit so much as an alternative viewpoint, to be taken however you see fit.

These are key points, but keep them succinct.

Aren't these covered by the overall 2+2 guidelines, or at least generally agreed-upon smart behavior? Redundant. And I think we're smarter than that. Those who aren't... well, that's what a friendly moderation reminder is for. Gives you an excuse to offer a helping hand, and initiate a dialogue with a new community member. You'd be amazed what a personal touch can do.

If there's a containment thread, then you don't need the rule. Just move 'em, and again it's a handy excuse to exchange pleasantries with a new member.

I like this, and it's a nice way to end the "rules" with "and here's something helpful to get you started".

...

Welcome to Mortar & Brick, a community for generating greater understanding of the joy and nuance of live play. We ask that you play nicely with others (especially those you don't know), and not delve too far into low-content territory. Discretion is a must when discussing any non-celebrity player or poker employee.

Before starting a new thread, please search to see that one doesn't already exist for the same or similar topic. We like to keep things tidy.

Many specialized or well-trod topics have designated Containment threads, a selection of which follows:
...

We thank you for your curious, insightful, and respectful contributions to our forum.

Probably a bit too hippie drippie, but it's more an impression than a proposal. What you have is good, too. I don't think it will change how it all sorts out, which is my primary point.

Now that it's gotten rolling a bit, I'd like to retract my earlier cynicism. I still maintain it is what it is, but I think it's taking an interesting shape, and I'm enjoying the experiment. My apologies to Mat and TPTB.

Quite possibly true, but largely a topic for ATF. Continue the discussion there if you'd like.

Let the discussion here, in this thread, focus on the how only, please.

There is no doubt a line in the sand here too. I think it's a little fuzzier than the one in B&M, and a little more open to discussion, but you're 100% correct: Eventually someone will take umbrage with my line as well. It's only a short period of time before the 'max sucks ATF thread.

A topic for the ATF thread, which I'll gladly answer there. Please use this space for discussing the specific moderation activities in this forum.

As it stands, it's written, and there's no much compelling in there to require a re-write. The rules are pretty short, frankly.

Again, it's more in the interpretation.

My goal is to provide a longer leash. I'll gladly work in this thread to discuss the length of the leash - but not the idea of repealing leash laws.

As someone who really does want to get into B&M poker when it's practical to do so, I used to read B&M. I eventually stopped because I was concerned about the poor moderation over there. (That is: I was afraid I'd get an infraction if I kept posting)

So I welcome our new Palimaxian overlords, and hope the result of this forum is either a new permanent thing, or some serious changes in the "merged" B&M.

Cue rapini gimmick account trying to get banned from m&b lol

I don't get why 2+2 upper management would rather create a bastard step child of a forum like this one, than remove the problem in the original forum. They are acknowledging that a problem exists by the creation of this forum, yet choose to ignore it rather than clean up the real B&M. I don't get it.

I'm all for a looser application of the rules here and will I'm sure contribute (or at least post) here, I just dont understand the logic of this experiment.

Palimax, so.. as a very specific moderation question: What powers DO you have here? And, has the question been answered about how threads will be copied from B&M to here?

I suppose it's difficult to describe succinctly, but I can manage posts just fine.

And, no, we have no answer to how to duplicate threads of interest.

Moderation note:

Because I'm a formatting nit, I will be fixing the occasional thread title.

As a result, you may have noticed a change to the "**** old guys say" thread, which, in theory violates the word-filter rule.

I won't be touching your posts, unless there's some sort of gross violation.

I'm here to help now, but also note that in this case, I take my direction from you. I'll be following the sticky guidelines, and I also will get any post reports (not sure if you do or not). If I get one's that are questionable according to the sticky, I'll discuss with you.

If no one has an issue with it, I'll stick with the semi site wide standard escalating infraction policy of warning->10 points->20 points->40 Points->You probably just hit 100 points bye bye.