I saw this over in the "How much do you lose live before quitting?" thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/20...98/#poststop):
Also saw one reply saying losing image was not necessarily -EV depending on how it was handled by the player. I know there are threads on table image. Is this sub-question worthy of a thread? Are opinions strongly held?


Thank you.

Well, if people think youre just clueless (or iPoker pro who thinks all manner of stupid moves and bluffs work), you'll get called light.

I'd say the guy you quoted just needs a new hobby.

This.

I'd say in general a losing image is -EV, because it's generally LOSERS who have the losing image. If they knew how to use that image to their favor, they wouldn't be losers.

I started playing in an underground 1/3 game about 5 years ago. When I started, I was a consistent loser. I'd play way too many hands, call down too much, bluffed too much, and made tons of all-in calls just to gamble. As time went by, and I started getting better, I learned from image. Absolutely nobody would fold to me. So I started just playing tight. I could sit for hours without playing a hand, then pick up AA and 4b/5b shove, and get called super light because "He could have any two!!!".

So it's all about being aware of your image, and using it effectively.

If your image is mismatched with your play, you will benefit from FTOP mistakes.

So yes, for most players a losing image will hurt.

i.e., because most players are in fact losing, yes?

I am fascinated by the dynamic of these forums in which we collectively self-represent as an exclusive, in-the-know group ("We 2+2ers do this, that, the other"; "Would love to meet up with another 2+2er"; etc.) -- despite the fact that the forums are (1) public; (2) free; and (3) high volume.

"We" can't all be winners, or even above average, when there is no we.

If people think you suck and don't profit from that, then I hate to break it you, but you suck.

Where is this place and how do I get there?

The quoted guy's opinion was derived from Bart Hanson. (and experience )

Thanks all for the comments. It occurs to me that "losing image" isn't really a thing; an image comprises numerous factors besides winning or losing (e.g. perceived aggression level, tightness or looseness, willingness to gamble, etc.).

Hypothesis: Given that the vast majority of players do lose over the long run, and given that lots of players in card-room have "winning images," there must be tons of people whose images are inflated. Whether they can use that to their benefit (in this case to lose less than they otherwise would), is, I suppose, an open question.

-EF

I love exaggerating the image of sucking. Especially when I catch an unlucky streak right in the beginning, I love to level people into thinking I'm tilting hard. Being able to interpret the way you're perceived is more important than 90% of poker knowledge, imo.

This is unrelated to the thread topic, but the truth is that just about every player in the card room has an inflated image. Every poker player, especially post-boom, suffers from survivor bias - that is, the people who were really unlucky have quit poker, so those who remain were luckier at the beginning. Even the good players.

As a result, almost everyone overestimates their win rate, even winning players, and a lot of people think they're winning players on a losing streak when in actuality they're losing players who were on a winning streak. As time goes on, everyone thinks they're running bad, because they use their initial rungood as a baseline.

If you can see your opponent's hole cards and play perfectly. Thus opponents who are predictable are very very readable. When you have a good strong image this is exactly what happens. They get scared, worried, lost on how to play you and turn into absolute predictablility. When they raise you fold because they will almost never bluff you. When they call down they have a medium hand.

Now take your image and turn it into a losing image and the reverse applies and its effects are even worse than you think. Player X that you have been with for 2 hours and figured out now plays differently vs you. He bluff raises, bluff bets, gets tricky. He is playing unpredictable. Now amplify this 8x for all the players. Also your ability to bluff vanishes. Now some of you might say "well then I get paid on my good hands". While it is true it is very very hard to hit a big hand in NLH. So your value comes from smaller pots. There arent many droolers at the table anymore unlike 8 years ago where your flush got called down by TPWK all the time.

Now I havent even taken into account tilt. You lose a big hand, some fish shows a bluff for a medium pot and he never bluffs. All these things impact your behavior and your brain. Although your opponents arent trained in body language readings and pattern detection just by being human and in a better mental state than you their natural instinct that has developed in their X years of life will sense things you are revealing.

So yea table image is huge.

How to combat a bad table image if you want to keep playing?
#1 ask for a table swap, and take a break away from your table until you relax
#2 play tight to rebuild your image of "I always got the nuts"
#3 keep it friendly at the table. Positive talk = laughter = positive mind = remove tilt. It also makes the players at the table like you and less likely to make moves.

Losing your image strengthens some tools you have, but it takes a few clubs out of your bag.

Adapt, and know that some images may be more valuable than others depending on how you actually play versus the perception of how you play.