I usually play 1-2 at Harrah's or 1-3 at Ameristar. Was just wondering if it was worth taking a shot, but I think I'll stay down for now.

Nothing wrong with taking a shot, just keep in mind whether you win or lose it is just a very small sample size and hard to get an idea if it is +EV for you to continue in that game.

Not knowing what kind of BR you are working with or if you play for a living or just recreational, I wouldn't move up to that game w/o at least a $10K roll for recreational or a $20K roll for full time - absolute minimum. That's only 10 and 20 full BI respectively.

If you are comfortable at a lower stake and you're winning I wouldn't be in any hurry to move up. The players at the 1/3 level are very poor fundamentally.

No, I sure as hell don't play for a living at Harrahs/Ameristar in St. Louis. I'm a recreational player who's underrolled for 1/3 even. Just wondering what people's opinions were on the 2/5 games.

A lot of people say there the hardest 2/5 games around blah blah blah... The games are actually quite good, just not in the same sense that most people would typically classify a "good" 2/5 game.

So ... good in the sense that pain is sometimes good? Or what?

the 2-5 games have a lot of action, cant be afraid to call $70 bets preflop. Most people who are regs in these games dont even give a **** about the money from what i see. But whatever im leavin the office to go play the $160 deppstacked longer blinds tourny at Harrahs

5/10- NL is now played on Wednesdays & Sundays at Ameristar b/c players still want to play 5/10 on Tuesday at Lumiere Place

Is 5-10 soft?

Very much so.

Played 2/5 NL today at Ameristar and thought it was marginally soft.. I've seen softer 2/5 games obv (mainly in vegas) but the game was definately beatable. Then again, it all depends on who you are, and what your idea of a "soft" game actually is. I like to think of things in terms of online poker. In this regard, almost every live game I've played (typically 2/5 - 10/20) ranges from moderately soft to very, very soft, in comparison to a typical low/mid stakes online game (1/2, 2/4).

What makes a "soft" game is relative. You should know where your profit is going to come from in any game you play.

Are you going to find to find tourists that are playing live for the first time and are completely clueless? No. Are people going to be stacking off with top pair no kicker for 200bbs? Probably not. Are the games full of people that play fundamentally bad though? Yes.

You'll see plenty of people habitually limp-calling marginal hands out of position, bluffing in horrible spots, playing their hands face up, failing to value bet every time a "scare" card comes, etc. etc. etc. As long as you have a clue then you should have little problem winning in the 2/5 and 5/10NL games at Ameristar. It's not like the games in St Louis are lacking in people playing poorly.

In that sense the games are soft. Are they soft in the sense that most people mean where all you have to do is make a hand and have someone give their stack? IMO, not as much as your average 2/5 or 5/10 game in Vegas or AC. It certainly still happens but not with the same frequency you might see elsewhere.

So how is the poker in St Louis? This is my perspective:

Overall, the games just generally don't have the same gambling "feel" you find elsewhere. There are several reasons for this.

First of all, St. Louis is not a poker destination. You don't have a lot of people vacationing and playing poker like you do in Vegas, AC, Reno, Tunica or other places. I mean if you're going to travel a significant distance to play poker you have better options. As a consequence you have a games generally filled with locals that play with each other day after day. The mindset is completely different. Instead of being "**** it, I'm in Vegas. Let's gamble," it's "Maybe instead of going to a Cardinals game or the movies I'll go to the boat and play some cards. If I get stuck I'll just go home."

The table talk is generally between people that already know each other. Not that this is necessarily bad, but for a player new to the games I can see how it can make them seem less friendly. This happens less at the lowest limits but is the norm at the higher games. People that like the social aspects of playing live might not find the games as enjoyable. When you're in vegas you regularly see tables where no one knows each other so their is more incentive to strike up a conversation with the person next to you. If you already know people at the table though you're naturally going to talk to them more. It's amusing to see some of the regulars bitch when the game might be a little slow but then make no effort to engage new players.

Further more, Missouri law dictates that casinos cannot give out free alcohol. Less people are going to drink and people that do will typically drink less when they are being charged. The fact that the casinos don't even offer the drinks any cheaper than you'd find out at a bar doesn't help either. I don't think there is any argument against the idea that drinking fosters looser games.

The $500 loss limit was repealed a relatively short time ago. It made it hard to get a game above $2/5NL going. Bigger games were private and they have been slow to transition into the casinos. Even now $5/10NL and 20/40-30/60 are out as high as it gets and they only run on certain days. They are becoming more common now and hopefully the trend will continue. As the stakes get larger the games will naturally get better at the limits lower.


This is obviously all based on my own experience. I could say more but I think that's a decent summary. Despite the somewhat negative tone, I think the games in St. Louis are good. My thoughts were more directed towards someone that has played elsewhere and might be visiting St. Louis and had some questions. The games are certainly fun and profitable. The atmosphere is just different than other places, although it seems to be slowly changing.

I hope I didn't deter anyone from playing in St Louis.... Seriously, come with your friends and family to Lumiere Place on Tuesday nights and have the chance to play an action packed game of big bet poker with none other than WSOP Main Event final tablist Dennis Phillips! Then please stay so we can get $5/10+ running the rest of the week...

Also, for anyone interested in playing $2/5NL+ at Ameristar, the rake is only 5% to $4 max and no drop for the damn bad beat jackpot.

NutsInYoEye, couldn't have said it better myself. Spot On!!

Well said and thought out, Nuts. Nice to see there are people who actually contribute to a thread instead of trying to get a high post count (ghey).

I'm guessing we have played a few hands together throughout the years.

Nice summary, NutsInYoEye...As you have mentioned the games here in St. Louis are fun and exciting but not in the same aspect that games in Vegas and California are. The games here definitely do not have the same gamble that one would see in Cali games (if anyone has played in the action-packed mid-limit Hold 'Em games in NorCal you know what I mean), but there is ample opportunity for a sound player to pick his or her spots to make games here profitable. One thing I have noticed in the Ameristar 2/5NL game is bigger hands and coolers (usually I find myself on the unfortunate end of those...lol) like set over set and such since as you mentioned not too many of the Regs will stack off with top pair-medium kicker too often.

As for those who enjoy limit Hold 'Em, the biggest issue here in St. Louis is there is no feeder game for the bigger game; usually it is just 3/6 and 20/40 (with an occasional 5/10). As for the 20/40 mix game at Ameristar that runs a few times a week, it is a decent game consisting of mostly older Regs who play a very loose passive game. I would prefer straight Hold 'Em but usually it is a round of Omaha Hi and Hold 'Em. But if you have the bankroll and can sustain a few sick coolers/beats, then this can be a very fun relaxing game that can also bring some decent profit.

Finally, is there any interest out there for a mid-limit Limit Hold 'Em game (like 10/20 or 15/30)? I think this could add another facet to the St. Louis Poker experience and maybe help some weaker low limit players to take a shot at bigger games. Anyways, thanks for reading. My 2 cents.
-Dr. F.

I pretty much agree with everything thats been said the last 4 posts. I remember playing 2-5 at Harrahs and u couldnt find a player that wasnt a reg sitting at the table. Still have yet to play at Ameristar, but I def wanna try the 2-5 game and possibly even the 5-10 game. Do people normally short buy in the 5-10 game or does every1 usually max buy? For that matter, is there a max buy? I know lumiere doesnt have a max buyin on Tuesdays.

Not sure on the specifics on the 5/10NL game at Ameristar (haven't played it yet), but I know for the 2-5NL at Ameristar (buy-in is $200-$1k), at least half the table buys in for max of $1k, a few between $400-$600 and usually only 1-2 short buyins from my experience. This is part of the reason the game plays pretty big for a 2-5 game, with occasional large raises being called by multiple players pre-flop.

I'm a weirdo who prefers limit poker over NL. I don't think there's a large enough pool of LHE players to sustain a mid level game. I've been trying to warm up some of the better 3/6 players to the idea of playing higher (6/12 - 10/20 range) but haven't gotten much positive response. I would like some avenue to eventually get to larger games.

I hear you, Biggle. I prefer Limit over NL during most occasions. I think if we could agree on a given day to start a 10-20 (or even an 8-16) game Ameristar would spread it and we could see if we could get something going. I know when Ameristar had the 15-30 limit game going for a few weeks there were a number of 3-6 and 5-10 limit players who took a shot. Let's see what we could do.

I haven't seen this mentioned in the thread, But Harrah's changed it's policy on iPods. They are now allowed at the tables. I didn't see a notice, but saw people listening and asked the floor. He said it is now OK.

They used to claim that Ameristar allowed them because of some "loophole”. I always wondered if that was true or if Harrah’s just didn’t want players to use them.

^^^
Different gaming officials. The Gaming officials at Ameristar & Lumiere always allowed them. The ones at Harrah's were tools. Harrah's went over their heads and got the rule changed. This is according to a couple different supervisors at Harrah's.

If you guys do get together on a day/place for a 6-12, 8-16 or 10-20 game please post it here. If I am available I will definately be there.

The 5/10 game at Lumiere was doing pretty well last night. There were 3 tables until 1am and all of them seemed to be decent. It was mostly people you see there often but that definitely doesn't always mean they are good.

They had a really weird must-move between all 3 tables but thankfully some players complained and the floor fixed the issue. They really need to get together and set 1 rule for this. The last few times I have played at Lumiere there was a different rule or change of rules about seating players. Other than that the game went really well.

YES ! Please post it here.

Ameristar would be best.