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Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

08-31-2020 , 03:05 PM
We may have played our last limit and spread-limit hands ...

https://news.ballotpedia.org/2020/08...vember-ballot/

Quote:
Colorado initiative to expand gaming types and increase maximum single bets certified for November ballot

The constitutional amendment, Initiative #257, would allow voters in Central City, Black Hawk, and Cripple Creek — the only towns where gaming is legal in Colorado — to approve a maximum single bet of any amount and approve more game types in addition to slot machines, blackjack, poker, roulette, and craps. The measure would repeal language that is currently in the Colorado Constitution that limits the types of games allowed in the casinos and that sets a maximum single bet of $100. The distribution of gaming tax revenue for community colleges in state statute would be amended to include distributions to programs to improve student retention and increase credential completion. If the measure is approved by voters statewide in November, each of the three towns may hold a local election to vote on whether to change betting limits and add new games. The earliest these changes would go into effect is May 1, 2021.

Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-01-2020 , 02:00 AM
still no poker in BH?
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-01-2020 , 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncleriver
still no poker in BH?
Last I heard, the state is waiting until after Labor Day weekend to see if there is a spike like there was after the 4th of July.

Look for further updates about 2 weeks after the holiday weekend ~Sept 23rd
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-02-2020 , 03:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BetStack
We may have played our last limit and spread-limit hands ...

https://news.ballotpedia.org/2020/08...vember-ballot/
Nice! When I looked last week it was the last initiative with the requisite # of signatures that wasn't officially on the ballot yet. Glad it finally got put on.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-03-2020 , 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruhKGB
Nice! When I looked last week it was the last initiative with the requisite # of signatures that wasn't officially on the ballot yet. Glad it finally got put on.
Per my extrapolations from Amendment 50 on the 2008 ballot, which received 58.6% of the vote, surpassing the necessary 55% super majority for ratification, we will need approximately 1,470,000 yes votes to pass this measure. I think it will be extremely close due to the majority of the increase in Colorado's population being millennials and Gen Z over the last 10 years. These generations gamble MUCH LESS than Gen X, baby boomers, and the silent generation. They don't care about gambling measures like this. We have to hope they will vote yes and not confuse this as some sort of tax increase and vote no.

I expect anywhere between 51% and 60% is entirely within the realm of possibility. 55% is the magic number. I think we'll all be on pins and needles on election day.

2024 attempt 2? Let's hope not
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-03-2020 , 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RidePolaris
Per my extrapolations from Amendment 50 on the 2008 ballot, which received 58.6% of the vote, surpassing the necessary 55% super majority for ratification, we will need approximately 1,470,000 yes votes to pass this measure. I think it will be extremely close due to the majority of the increase in Colorado's population being millennials and Gen Z over the last 10 years. These generations gamble MUCH LESS than Gen X, baby boomers, and the silent generation. They don't care about gambling measures like this. We have to hope they will vote yes and not confuse this as some sort of tax increase and vote no.

I expect anywhere between 51% and 60% is entirely within the realm of possibility. 55% is the magic number. I think we'll all be on pins and needles on election day.

2024 attempt 2? Let's hope not
My understanding of the initiative is voting is limited to residents of Black Hawk, Central City & Cripple Creek and it's not a statewide thing.

"... allowing the voters of Central City, Black Hawk, and Cripple Creek, for their individual cities, to approve other games in addition to those currently allowed and increase a maximum single bet to any amount..."

Am I totally off here or was that the initial limitation solely to get it on the "big" ballot for statewide voting in November?

Agree if it's statewide it's probably iffy but I'd think the likelihood of it passing goes way up if voting is strictly limited to those 3 cities. Literally costs nothing to pass and would increase gaming tax revenue quite a bit. Can't see why anyone would oppose.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-04-2020 , 12:19 AM
Bruh, I think you’ve got this slightly wrong. This is an amendment to the Colorado constitution, all Colorado residents who are eligible to vote can do so on the amendment. If it passes, then the residents of BH, Central City, etc can then vote to increase the limits.

I’m skeptical this will pass, I feel like people who don’t gamble don’t favor this. Personally, I’m opposed to ruining the best midstakes LHE game in the country...
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-04-2020 , 01:53 AM
Gotcha quant... makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Good point on the 30/60 game. Guessing some of that player pool would jump over to 5/10 or 10/20 NL games if they ran.

Will be interesting to see how the 'pro' side advertises this one. They'll def pour a ton of money in, just curious to see what their angle will be. Clean Water Colorado 2.0? haha
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-04-2020 , 05:23 PM
Quote:
Will be interesting to see how the 'pro' side advertises this one.
Oh that's easy, it's politics 101--think of the children.

Specifically, and to take advantage of all this economic uncertainty, it will be sold as a way to ensure that Colorado's educational system continues to get the level of funding it needs without increasing taxes on the great hardworking people of Colorado.

Every state that legalized casino gambling in the last 30 years (Colorado included) did so by including wording that specified funds go to education. Every state that has expanded its gaming (allowing non-riverboats, eliminating loss limits, eliminating "boarding times", etc.) did so by invoking the magical word "education".

I say it passes 65-35.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-05-2020 , 01:45 AM
Poker market in BH will shrink considerably if/when this happens. Spread limit helps the losing lose less than they would in a NL game and help them from busting out faster. Player pools will eventually dwindle and none of the casino towns draw much tourism on their own (outside if HPT/MSPT) to bring enough action into the town. I hope for all of our sakes I’m wrong, but I’ve felt this way for years.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-06-2020 , 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawlz517
Poker market in BH will shrink considerably if/when this happens. Spread limit helps the losing lose less than they would in a NL game and help them from busting out faster. Player pools will eventually dwindle and none of the casino towns draw much tourism on their own (outside if HPT/MSPT) to bring enough action into the town. I hope for all of our sakes I’m wrong, but I’ve felt this way for years.
A significant portion of the player pool is made up of 60+ year old retirees who are excellent at self-regulating their exposure to variance. They will only play as much as their social security and pensions allow. Most players only buyin for $100 - $200 anyways, so no limit won't really come into play on many hands with anymore effect than our existing spread limit. It's not like these players are going to lose $500+ in one hand.

The action hasn't dried up in any other locales with no limit.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-07-2020 , 02:19 AM
I don't know if you're referring to 1/3, but that has not been my experience.

If that bill passes, not only is the 30/60 game in jeopardy, but also the 2/5. 1/3 is likely to not be affected as much.

I made six figures in that 2/5 game last year. This is the only game I've ever been in that has a rotating cast of bad players sun-thurs. The regulars, if you can call them that only play fri/sat. And they're not particularly good players either, but definitely are action.

The 100 limit highly encourages bad play. No limit would likely either scare players off, break them, or encourage them to improve their game. I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see.

There are already plenty of no limit home games going in Denver.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-07-2020 , 11:30 AM
"The action hasn't dried up in any other locales with no limit......"
"The 100 limit highly encourages bad play............"

The Action, IMO, is always enhanced with speed limits. Bad players will lose their money slowly, instead of all at once. And, action does indeed dry up when all you have around is No Limit Hold'em. Look at the number of tables on the Las Vegas strip, and the Quarterly Reports of the 2+2 State of Las Vegas Poker on this forum. That number keep shrinking, even before the current virus problems.

This observation has been around for years, and has always been proven out.
The very founder of this forum, Mason M., co-wrote a book years ago with one Donna Harris, (The Poker Dealers Handbook) who was the poker manager at The Mirage. It was Harris' famous prediction that, long-term, No Limit Poker would be the very death of Poker itself. She reasoned that most of the money would end up in the hands of the very few, the very best, and completely drive out the rec and novice players. It is documented that she fought the move to NLTH at Mirage; and pretty much paid for that stance with her job. Later moving on to The Wynn, she didn't last long there either with insistence on lower BI's and attempts to keep Limit Poker alive.

Just observe how many tables Black Hawk has now, compared to five or ten years ago. How many places even spread a game? How many average active tables once poker resumes?
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-07-2020 , 11:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RidePolaris

The action hasn't dried up in any other locales with no limit.
In Chicago, the other market where I have significant experience, this is not true at midstakes +. It is a similar setup where the casino is appx 1 hr from downtown and all the 2/5+ action is at one casino. If you use 5/10+ as an equivalent for Blackhawk 30/60 & 50/100, pre covid on a Friday night there were 2-3 games at Horseshoe Hammond compared to 4-5 at Ameristar. On weekdays in Chicago there was often no game compared to almost always one in Blackhawk. The Chicago metropolitan area is 3x the size of Denver. Limit games reduce the rate that losing players deplete their bankroll and their % of winning sessions is higher.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-07-2020 , 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke CT
I don't know if you're referring to 1/3, but that has not been my experience.

If that bill passes, not only is the 30/60 game in jeopardy, but also the 2/5. 1/3 is likely to not be affected as much.

I made six figures in that 2/5 game last year. This is the only game I've ever been in that has a rotating cast of bad players sun-thurs. The regulars, if you can call them that only play fri/sat. And they're not particularly good players either, but definitely are action.

The 100 limit highly encourages bad play. No limit would likely either scare players off, break them, or encourage them to improve their game. I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see.

There are already plenty of no limit home games going in Denver.
6 figures? That is impressive. 13+ bb/h, assuming 1,500 hours played annually. I heard anything over 10 is exceptional.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-07-2020 , 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC95818
"The action hasn't dried up in any other locales with no limit......"
"The 100 limit highly encourages bad play............"

The Action, IMO, is always enhanced with speed limits. Bad players will lose their money slowly, instead of all at once. And, action does indeed dry up when all you have around is No Limit Hold'em. Look at the number of tables on the Las Vegas strip, and the Quarterly Reports of the 2+2 State of Las Vegas Poker on this forum. That number keep shrinking, even before the current virus problems.

This observation has been around for years, and has always been proven out.
The very founder of this forum, Mason M., co-wrote a book years ago with one Donna Harris, (The Poker Dealers Handbook) who was the poker manager at The Mirage. It was Harris' famous prediction that, long-term, No Limit Poker would be the very death of Poker itself. She reasoned that most of the money would end up in the hands of the very few, the very best, and completely drive out the rec and novice players. It is documented that she fought the move to NLTH at Mirage; and pretty much paid for that stance with her job. Later moving on to The Wynn, she didn't last long there either with insistence on lower BI's and attempts to keep Limit Poker alive.

Just observe how many tables Black Hawk has now, compared to five or ten years ago. How many places even spread a game? How many average active tables once poker resumes?
I think many of you are falsely assuming all spread limit games will switch to no limit. Why would you think that? This will only add more options to game selection. There will be plenty of players who still want to play spread limit. You'll see some no limit games and some spread limit games at all of the poker rooms. The older crowd will often choose the spread limit games, or at least that's my assumption.

Also remember, there are only 2 states with betting caps, South Dakota at $1,000 and Colorado at $100. That means of the 40+ states that have poker rooms, 38+ are no limit, and poker seems to be doing just fine. Tournament entries are a good barometer for poker's popularity. Entries keep increasing on average across most poker markets.

I'm going by the numbers here, not emotion or opinion.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-07-2020 , 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RidePolaris
I think many of you are falsely assuming all spread limit games will switch to no limit. Why would you think that? This will only add more options to game selection. There will be plenty of players who still want to play spread limit.
Where else in the country do you find spread limit games other than states with max bet laws? The vast majority of the player pool likely move to NL and never look back. You might have a few OMCs/nitty regs want to keep playing SL but I just don’t see it lasting. Even if it does, I can’t envision those games being great. NL will be where the action and money is and it’ll dry up much faster than it would have with SL.

Just think of how BH was 5 years ago. Lodge/Gates/Star would all fill up seemingly every weekend. Now look at it. Even Star doesn’t go full except for when GG has a big tournament series running or maybe a holiday. The market has been shrinking for years and I can’t imagine a scenario where removing the max bet law does anything but accelerate that.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-07-2020 , 05:51 PM
Surprised to see as many mixed opinions on this. Guess I'm a little more optimistic about it all, but figured everyone here would be all for it. Personally I don't foresee a giant negative shift in the poker economy if we open up the betting limits or offer true NL games/expand the game types we offer, but I could be wrong. I think the overall economy here in the metro Denver area is definitely big enough to support the change and don't think this would be the 'beginning of the end' of poker as we know it.

Ride already mentioned it ITT, but 1/3 already essentially plays as 'no limit' as-is given ~75% of the table (in my experience) is buying in for $100 or less and/or popping in their $50 rebuy if they go bust. There might be some mental block or fear for some players switching from SL to NL, but reality is if you're only buying in for $75-100, you're still playing the exact same game whether you realize it or not. I can see the concern raised as you go up in limits to 2/5+, but I think if you're a winning player now, you'll still be a winning player after if the amendment passes with some adjustments. I can see the "a bad player is more likely to call a $100 bet in a bad/marginal spot versus $250" school of thought, but I think that works both ways. We'll all have to be ready to ride the variance train to some degree.

Fundamentally I don't foresee some giant shift in the poker scene if this passes, at least not in the short-term. Initially I think Ameristar might replace one of their 2/5 games with a 5/10 on the weekends and maybe(?) a lower-limit PLO game (if there's demand). The heart of this bill is certainly aimed at machine/table play and increasing those limits. We all know casinos don't really care about poker to that extent. Hopefully the demand would merit it at some point, but it's not like Ameristar is going to kill of 50 machines so they can expand out their poker room by 4-5 tables anytime soon.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-07-2020 , 11:07 PM
Max bet definitely keeps people in action. Not having baccarat and other 'asian' games, brings poker more exposure there as well.

The casinos relative isolation from other casinos helps as well.

The Chicago example is tough. NW indiana sucks, and is very removed from the central core of chicago. Further most of the money lives north and west of loop making drive more annoying. Chicago also has options north, west and for no poker in burbs.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-09-2020 , 12:03 AM
178 days. That's how long poker will have been shutdown.

Thursday, September 10th. Time to play again folks.

♥♦♠♣
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-09-2020 , 09:43 AM
Where are you getting that date, Polaris? I looked at the poker room pages for Golden Gates, Isle, & Ameristar. Didn't see any mention of tomorrow.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-09-2020 , 11:58 AM
Saw a GG dealer post of FB they are reopening tomorrow. 6-max, no dividers, masks mandatory.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-09-2020 , 02:07 PM
Star has announced they will reopen Friday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-09-2020 , 03:02 PM
Yep, Ameristar confirmed on Twitter table games & poker re-opening Friday @ 8am. No specifics, just "limited capacity." Assuming they'll probably be 6-max if Gates is doing the same.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote
09-10-2020 , 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawlz517
Saw a GG dealer post of FB they are reopening tomorrow. 6-max, no dividers, masks mandatory.
Florida poker room supervisor here, just cruising the 2p2 boards. There's no conceivable win rate that would convince me to play in a room without dividers and no table full of generous tippers that would convince me to deal in such a room.

Be prepared to see players sitting without their mask on for minutes at a time while they nurse a bottle of water. Or the guy who can't figure out that his mask is worthless if it only covers his mouth and not his nose. Or the guy who goes out for a cigarette and forgets to put it back on when he returns inside. Or the guy who always lowers his mask when he talks because he has this belief that otherwise nobody will hear him.

Good luck with this.
Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek) Quote

      
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