WSOPC HORSE event. 8 handed Stud round. 200 ante, 300 bring-in. Limit: 500/1000. Not quite 1/2 the field eliminated. Stack sizes are just enough for both players to go all-in on the river if facing a bet and a raise.


Villain : Folding one hand preflop every 11 on average. Opens or 3Bets every single PLO and almost every Stud hands. Total drunk maniac. Likes to cap streets to buy a “free” card. He has gone all-in 3x already that I recall, each time incredibly weak while ramming and jamming - but somehow he got there (Razz, Omaha, and Stud 8). Villain is totally myopic, only sees his hand, he is drunk with aggression (and alcohol). Multiple times he has bet into an opponent who had a paired board without thinking, at least one time he folded when this occurred. Textbook maniac.


Everyone folds to Villain who completes with a 9 showing. I have Q(66) with a suit, all live cards and chose to isolate with two players on my left remaining to act, both of which tend to be nitty. Everyone folds except the villain who calls the isolation raise.

4th: I catch another 6, Villain catches a T for a board of (XX)9T. Villian bets, and is then reprimanded by the dealer for acting out of turn. He then sees my pair and attempts to check. We tell him again that I have to act first. I check. Villain says “I guess my bet is binding now” and then bets, so of course I check-raise. Villain 3Bets, I 4Bet. Someone at the table says “Is that a cap”? Villain calls.

5th: street delivers blanks for us both. I bet, he raises, I 3 Bet, he calls.

6th: Villain catch an 8 for (XX)9TY8 (with Y being a low an inconsequential card). My card is the blank of purple horseshoes (aka it doesn’t matter). I check/call his instant bet.

7th: I do not improve my set. I have exactly enough for 1.1 bets. Villain barely has me covered by maybe T200. If I check, I may miss a bet. If I check/call I have one ante remaining if I lose. If I bet, and there is a raise, I might as well call the remaining tiny amount because 1 ante won’t help me very much at this stage of the tournament.


1) Considering the fact that this is a tournament, AND my opponent is the laggiest lags that ever lagged, does everyone like the amount of action I put in before 6th?
2) Everyone like 6th street? Is there anyone that bets, and if so why (show math).

3) On 7th I decided to bet/call villain's all-in to put my tournament life at risk, I felt committed to my hand vs this Lag. Anyone disagree, and if so why?

Results do not matter, I am only interested in the decisions leading up to showdown. Thanks!

Sucks if he has QJ in the hole...I get it all in here given his maniac nature

This is key, but not in that way - I think leaving yourself with an ante or two actually does have a lot of value; you'll be getting at least 7 to 1 on your money whenever you do get it in, albeit blind. The point is not to ladder up a spot or two by surviving a few more hands, but to actually get back in it; 1600 chips at 500/1k after an 8x isn't hopeless. (actually, you probably mean it's 1k/2k if the ante/bring is 2/300?) If the situation is at all close, which this is, I err toward staying alive and giving up a little value now, especially if your edge on the field is big. It seems like you should still be ahead here (wild-ass guess two-thirds of the time?), but it also seems like you'll often get a bet in anyway against this guy by checking 7th. Possibly you'll even catch a bluff that would have folded to a bet? If you think he checks behind two pair, maybe a bet is better. Clearly you're never bet-folding with .1 bets behind.

Anecdotal evidence isn't worth much here, but I've turned a fraction of a bet into a deep run a bunch of times in stud or HORSE tournaments. (If it's toward the end of the E round and you'll be switching to holdem in the next few hands, get it in now.) Far far too often I see otherwise good players get crippled to a big bet or so, then jam it in blind the next hand.

Maybe it's lazy thinking, but given the amount of action he's put in, you're beat a fair amount of the time, and if not you've already gotten plenty of value out of small trips. His bet on sixth when he could have taken a free river shows a fair bit of strength, even for this guy. Most of his range should be at least two pair OR a pair plus some kind of straight draw, right? Plus, saving an ante or two means you get to keep playing this guy.

Save an ante. c/c for all the reasons Grapes mentions. Your last few chips are the most precious and should not be put at risk frivolously.

It's hard to say for sure but you are repping Queens-up minimum after Fifth so his bets should mean something.

I have a great big hot steaming man crush on you right now Grapes.

I agree with everything you said. But since this is long before the money is reached, and I am left with just one ante, is my time more valuable that the potential equity that an ante contains? On paper I should check/call because I want to conserve that ante. Its a time vs equity dilemma... the math nerd in me says conserve the ante, and that math nerd is fighting the urge to say why bother, we get to go home faster this way if we are wrong.

Could you ever find a check/fold on the river Grapes? What if I told you we have seen him misrepresent his hand by calling out "Straight" when he had nothing to encourage a fold, and was given a warning previously for this? He was drunk, but as is typical with drunks part of the inebriated decision process might be an act. What if we ignored the fact that he is the drunken Lag of all Lags, could you check/fold the river then?

Vs the villain you describe, I can't see how you don't put all the chips in. I mean, he could be 'vbetting' 2 pair, no? Even less?

.....

I don't think that is likely based on what I described. Don't assume that to be the case just because he is a maniac. I never described a situation where he value bet 2 pair or less verses insane action. In fact I did say he liked to put in insane action and then check back - always remember there is some logic, even if flawed, to a maniac's actions. Our goal as players is to decipher what that logic is.

I'll reiterate that he was given a warning for the only time he misrepresented his hand, so it's unlikely that he would misrepresent his hand verbally again. He would only bet if he thought he could get me to fold, and I assume he knows thats unlikely to happen. Whatever he is doing, it's a value bet for sure - at least in his own mind.

I don't see a whole lot of difference between saving one ante and saving one big bet.

I don't really have an issue with playing on 3rd, although it sounds like you're not forcing him out of the hand (and I see no shame in folding 3rd and waiting for a better spot), but once you make trips against this guy, you basically have to commit.

Sick brag.

Thats how I played this hand, but I am not so sure I agree that we are committed just because we have trips vs a maniac. In a cash game, yes. In a tournament... gray area. The description Ive given tends to be insanity early in the hand, not late - he hasn't been too far out of line since being reprimanded by the floor for miscalling his hand.

Would be pretty sad for anyone to think that their time isn't valuable, no?

Since you do nothing wrong on 4th, 5th and 6th, your only possible mistake is not folding 3rd.

Think about it. You know he's a maniac. His door card is higher than your buried pair. It's probably unlikely (even for him) either of his hole cards are lower than a 6, so on most run outs, you're playing a bloated pot, often OOP, against a sticky drunk, so won't know where you stand. You start with 9 or 10 big bets in your stack(if my math is right).

Personally, I'm not getting out of control with that hand vs a maniac with that stack size.

As played, you hit the best possible card on 4th, what else would you do but try to get it all in the middle ASAP?

If you are not committed after hitting your best possible card on fourth, then why play the hand in the first place? Especially vs his board.

Kind of a weird thread imo, real decision point is probably third and there wasn't any questions on that but we are discussing saving an ante far away from the money in what I presume is a $300 tourney?

What is your upcard in 3rd, Q or 6?

(6d6s)Qd. 3rd is clearly a slim spot, but it would show a positive expected return vs this opponent, and vs the two opponents on my right who have already telegraphed that they are likely folding. This street is not in question IMO, its a tossup either way but the choice is fine.

If a bet goes in on the river you're losing an awful lot. There's no reason to knock yourself out of the tournament just to prove your commitment to a hand.

Having an ante left is, literally, infinitely better than not having one.

Even though it was not your intention, your post is actually advising a river check/fold. And thats really what this thread is about; virtually everyone, including me, calls a river bet. Some people (I did this time) get it in. Almost nobody check/folds... yet in hindsight, I think that might be the better option, and I regret my play. If villain has a pure bluff or 2 pair, then good for him if he induces a fold. Our job is preservation in a tournament, stay in and active at all costs.

Results: I think I should have check/folded that river. The cash game player deep down inside of myself got the best of me, this should be a check/fold in a tournament situation.

Opinions?

So let's recap the situation on the river.

You're heads up with a drunk "textbook maniac" who you've seen cap with air to get a free card. He's showing 89Tx with no obvious flush draws. You have (at least) 666Q to block straights. You should be good here more than half the time, I'd estimate. You want to check/fold trips on the river getting 15 to 1 because... tournament considerations.

For real? What am I missing?

Getting 15:1 (actually less, but lets assume that was true for dramatic considerations) shouldn't matter here because we can only gain in tournament equity slightly when we win compared to the massive loss of tournament equity when we lose. In hindsight, I'd rather keep the 1.2 bets and live to play another hand.

Even maniacs slow down. He has at least 2 pair with T9, unlikely to have better trips based on 3rd street play but its possible, and based on what we know about being free cards a straight is probable. I think there is at least a 38% chance he checks river with TT99 because my hand is clearly strong even in his maniac eyes, this puts my decision closer to the check/fold category because there are more weighted combinations of straights. QJ is still clean enough, and he could have 67 but that is unlikely both due to card removal as well as play.

I know its a nitty fold to make, thats not lost on me at all... but when I started thinking to myself what would RayZ do - I realized the line was the worst of the three.

No, if I thought you should c/f I would have said that. It's insane to c/f here because you can c/c and still have an ante left.

^

Hi Kurn, give this a read:
Ben Yu: How Much Is A Chip And A Chair Worth? aka 2p2: ProfessorBen

Hope all is well,
Joe

lol

Initially I was thinking I like the play - this is a get in given reads/action, but the above is true. I came back to take 2nd before with > than 1BB left w/over half the field remaining in an LAPC HORSE event before....