Does anyone know the reasoning behind this rule? Double bet on 4th with pair showing in stud hi. I've been thinking about it and I can't come up with a reason why this makes the game better. Everyone already has plenty of incentive to fold due to the paired door card, why give them worse odds to continue as well?

I agree the rule is antiquated and does not belong.

I disagree.

When somebody pairs his door card on Fourth he typically bets double with both his strong hands and his nonsense that happened to pair. Whenever you have both good and bad hands putting more money in the pot you make the game better.

Sure, there is often a cascade of folding afterward, which means habitual bluffers now have a reason to play any hand on Third hoping to pair up.

Imagine a similar rule that let you bet more if you were showing a four flush on Sixth. Think about the bullsh:t hands people would continue with on Fifth, and how light you'd then have to call a lot of rivers.

I like the Fourth Street rule.

And without the double bet rule we have:


The game would better with more people getting to 5th street and making big mistakes continuing. I have always thought the rule was no good for the game and have yet to hear a solid argument in favor of it.

You can bet single if you think that's going to make you more money.
As a rule, I like permitting the double bet.

If you are allowed to bet double, you should do it near 100% of the time.

Removing the double bet would be better for the overall condition of Stud hi, which is now a near dead game. Out of all the games spread at the Rio this summer, Stud Hi was rarely (if at all), seen.

I'm awayah.

I doubt that's the reason people don't jump at starting a game with a million intricacies and an expensive learning process.

And there was way less limit Omaha than stud.

I didn't say it was but the rule is hurting the game, not helping. In all my time playing Stud High, I have heard more players say the rule is not fun, dumb, old, stupid, etc. I have rarely, if ever heard the opposite.

There wasn't a single Stud High game, I don't think it was in a mix either.

Regardless of which game is "deader", I think we can agree that Stud is pretty darn dead in live ring games (and probably on life support in online ring games). From what I know, LHE isn't doing that much better, and while there are some consistent O/E mixed games in spots, NLHE is still crushingly dominant. I suspect it's the unlimited betting that's the difference, not the game format.

LHE is very healthy, healthier than OE.

LHE is alive and well in California, Arizona, here in Vegas and I assume the Borgata but not sure.

Midstakes LHE is alive at the Borgata and Foxwoods and Stud Hi is probably the strongest high stakes game in the northeast.

Maybe a monday afternoon isn't a good representative sample, but according to the bravo app, here are the hold 'em games running at the premier poker rooms around me right now:

Borgata: limit - 4, no limit - 15
Parx: limit - 1, no limit - 11

On Stars there are about 1600 limit HE players and over 20,000 NL players grinding atm (including the "fast fold" tables).

I suspect that if it were just the love of hold 'em in any form that was suffocating the stud games, those numbers would be more like 2:1 and less like 5:1 or 10:1.

And it sure doesn't help things, now that Commerce has increased the rake to $7 in the 20-40 Stud game. The players there are mighty pissed. This weekend, people were refusing to play when the table got short handed with people walking around, and the table ended up with 4 players. Tables are going to break faster now.

Here in Chicago there are mixed games including stud for significant stakes running several times a week. Stud doesn't run as a stand-alone game here but it's far from dead.

And I like the double-bet rule.

From Roberts Rules of Poker:

If a card room only allows the player with the open pair on 4th tomake the double bet, then I agree the rule should be abolished.

However if the card room follows the Roberts Rules of Poker standard, then then I can think of many strategic reasons why the double bet option can be advantageous - in particularly when used by the person who is not holding the exposed pair.

2nd player I've heard say this in 30 years of stud play.

If the general consensus of the player in the game is that the rule is no good, then the rule is no good for the general condition of the game.

This situation rarely happens and everyone still, and does, fold.

Roberts made mistake, if he's the one who made the rule.

Happens at least once a night, and not everybody folds. Which we like.

Nobody addressed my original question which was, where did this rule come from in the first place?

My only guess is it was something like, the nits of the time realized that calling a paired door on 4th was usually a sucker play, so why not make the suckers pay twice as much if they're going to call anyway?

Bellagio 20/40 Stud, last week. The hand was something like I had an open pair in the bringin on 4th with As6s6d, vs (XX)KX and (ZZ)ZsZs that were middling. I checked, KX made it a double bet, ZsZs raised, I folded and KX called then check/folded on 5th vs an unimproved ZsZs. Kx declared "I know when someone is rolled up" or something like that after his fold.

A few hands later I open limp with a 9 showing, the player who previously had KX completed with a Q door card, folds back around to me I back raised. He then turned over his down cards to show (JJ)Q and declared "I know when I am being trapped!" In my mind I was thinking "that you for showing me how to exploit you earlier!" as I repped a hand far superior than what I actually had and won the pot without a struggle when I only had 33% equity.

Rare situation, but that is a good spot to learn about and exploit your opponents use of a double bet on 4th.

Rule may have come from the days when the Hilton Rule Book became the defacto standard, best bet would be to ask Ray Zee or Bob Ciafone?

Whaaaaa?

Do you mean LO8 or LO high? If LO8, I think you're flat wrong. If LO high-only, then I'm certain you're right, and there was also way less five-card draw jacks or better to open, five-card stud, California lowball with the joker, ...

I know. All of it is a travesty.

The real fun is when the open pair leads for the small bet and someone else raises the full bet, which to my understanding is allowable/standard. This has come up a couple of times because I only play stud high in a HORSE-like mix. Everyone forgets that you can make the double bet in stud high, but not in stud 8.

hey omaha high is alive and well here in LA! 4/8/12 games run 3x a week at 5/10/15 on sundays. Quite a fun game i must say