I play in a 20/40 live mix game on occasion with a half-kill. When the pot is scooped and over $200, a forced blind of $20 is posted. When the pot is over $400, the blind is $30 and the game is played as 30/60. I believe a couple people here are familiar with the game.

In stud/8, the killer is last to act on 3rd street. So if a 2c brings it in and i'm right behind him with an Ac, i'm forced to "raise" it to $20 (or $30) the first time, without any other choice. Only after the action comes back around to me can i actually do what i want. In this game, it has the effect of making a lot of multi-way pots where people tag along, or pots where you have people trying to isolate and attack the kill money.


Q's

- If the kill is posted: how should this affect our starting hand requirements? Typically i might like to limp with a hand like 357, A27, 236 to see if i can snag a cheap 4th street and typically am not calling a completed bet for them, let alone two. But suppose there's a single A and an 8 between us and a kill with a 9 out. Would you make it two bets with these, or similar, hands? My suspicion is that it's a small EV spot at most, with variance rocketing implications.

- If we're posting the kill: what's the most you're willing to defend with vs. someone who probably has a hand? In our game not too many players try to steal with absolutely nothing, and though it does happen it's not with enough frequency to make a big adjustment. So for the most part, players tend to attack with something decent. A few examples: 487, 587, 678 vs. an EP ace raise? 237 vs a 5 raise?

- Is there a general strategy you think is optimal in kill games? I just recently read a really awesome post on flopturnriver forums about kill strategy in LHE games. Obviously the games are different, and the way the kill works is different as well. But some things apply or at least may apply. One of the things mentioned was how hands that are only marginally +EV now become losers because once the kill is posted, you're basically "raked" 1 SB. If this indeed fully applies to stud/8, then shouldn't that mean playing tighter is better?

[not sure what TOS is for links to other poker forums, but just to be safe i won't link. google "lawdude's guide to kill pots" if you'd like to read it]




I realize that my questions could be a bit much to ask. But i've recently come back to live limit games with the idea that a lot of what i've learned needs to be dug up and re-evaluated. I'd really appreciate some discussion and new ideas outside of what i normally hear from my typical circles.


Thanks, guys.

As far as pre-kill you have the right idea but it's usually a much smaller adjustment in games where big scoops trigger the kill as opposed to consecutive winners.

Post kill is a much longer topic.

One thing I would note is that the kill is especially brutal in Stud8 because if you have a trash hand like J93 it's essentially worthless even if nobody else raises on 3rd, since you likely can't call a bet on 4th even if you catch "perfect", unlike flop games where you can at least hope for a miracle flop with any hand.

Clarification please:

After the 2c brings it in what exactly are your choices next to act with the Ace in the door in the 30/60 scenario?

It would seem you could limp for the bring in knowing you would eventually have to pay at minimum the 30 total to play. Or if not, because the 30 is posted elsewhere, then you could call the 30 or raise to 60. However, I'm guessing this is not correct.

I seem to remember a 20/40 Stud 8 only game at the Bike I played in many years ago that was structured something like this. But I might have that wrong too.

i probably gave a bad example to begin with.

let's say that i'm the killer with the K. and let's say it's 4-handed with these cards out:

seat 1: 2
seat 2: A
seat 3: K
seat 5: 4


- my kill would be automatically posted for $30.

- the 2 MUST bring it in for the minimum, which would be $5.

- next to act is the A. let's say he plans to raise. he can only call the $5 for now, until action has passed through me (K) the first time around.

- that first time that the action hits me i'm "forced" to complete the bet. because my kill has already been posted for me, i've technically acted and can't do anything the first time the action gets to me.

- let's say the 4 folds. action now goes back to the 2 and he decides to fold rather than complete the bet.

- the action is now back on the A. he's still in for the $5. he can now "call" the completed bet or raise it up to $60. he raises.

- whatever his action is, i now have the option to act after he is done. he raises and i can fold, call, or re-raise him.

Game is where?