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Old 03-14-2017, 11:43 PM   #1
Howard Beale
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Stud/8 hand in which I don't raise a wheel on 5th, 6th OR 7th!

The 8/16 Stud/8 round at Talking Stick's 0/E game in which I found myself in a spot I'd never come across before. TBH, IDK if this is thread worthy unless some ppl have done math on this stuff but here it is:

A complete on 3rd w/ 6 callers. Bet and call by 3 (now 4-handed to be clear) on 4th. On 5th first to act has some high cards and bets. I've made a wheel and am next to act and one player behind has some none exciting high cards and the other has bad low cards. I just call hoping for overcalls which I get. Nothing much changes on 6th, player in front of me bets and I do the same thing and get both overcalls. And I did it on 7th also, got the overcalls and scooped.

I can't decide if 7th is good bec the pot's fairly large, the players behind me have called twice and maybe they will call a raise. Just a case of being situation dependent and reads or is there any 'mathy' stuff to consider?
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Old 03-15-2017, 05:06 AM   #2
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Re: Stud/8 hand in which I don't raise a wheel on 5th, 6th OR 7th!

Very very hard to do "math" (range equity analysis) on a multiway stud 8 hand, and impossible without more complete info. I have included a little bit of math out of obligation.

Your thinking on all early streets is good, but once the pot is big on the river you should raise. The player with the high hand is betting into multiple opponents in a huge pot. He's not going to fold for one more when it's back to him, so even if the other two might have called but fold, you're only missing out on a single potential bet of profit (bet +2 calls = 3BB vs bet plus bettor calls raise = 2BB) and often enough in a big pot everybody who will call one bet will call two, while people who made nothing will fold for one bet anyhow.

Raising this river is imperative because you could be missing out on an additional 3BB of profit.
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Old 03-15-2017, 11:03 AM   #3
Howard Beale
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Re: Stud/8 hand in which I don't raise a wheel on 5th, 6th OR 7th!

Thanks. That is exactly what I was thinking on the drive home. Along w/ 'you dummy.'
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Old 03-18-2017, 11:15 PM   #4
NedSchneebly
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Re: Stud/8 hand in which I don't raise a wheel on 5th, 6th OR 7th!

I disagree about just calling 5th.

I would raise 5th because often times the other hand high will call as the pot is fairly large at this point and if he has some type of flush or straight draw it is good to get him out of the pot or charge him to get there as well.

As for the low board, given the same reasoning as the pot being large, he may be correct to call with his 7 or 8 made lows and may think you are just raising four to a low with a pair in order to knock him out.
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Old 03-19-2017, 01:44 AM   #5
Howard Beale
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Re: Stud/8 hand in which I don't raise a wheel on 5th, 6th OR 7th!

That's reasonable enough but I was pretty sure they'd fold to a raise. The game is full of bad players but it would've been optimistic to expect either to call a raise w/ the cards each of them had. 7th was my big mistake.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:40 AM   #6
Ray Zee
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Re: Stud/8 hand in which I don't raise a wheel on 5th, 6th OR 7th!

raise the river for sure.

when the pot is already big, maybe raise earlier not to get more money in but to knock out players as you dont want someone to back into a tie or a better high as a wheel is a weaker high. and ones that have a real good chance will come anyway.
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:19 AM   #7
Howard Beale
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Re: Stud/8 hand in which I don't raise a wheel on 5th, 6th OR 7th!

Yah, should've raised the river but those hands behind me on fifth were really weak. With those players you can never be certain that they'd fold but I wasn't worried about getting beaten by them very much or the player in front of me either. Should've raised the river bec of what electrical said.

I always review key hands in my head (still some from years ago ) and figured 'why not ask 2p2?' Thanks for the reply.

ETA to add a hand from around 1995 when I didn't raise quad Aces until the river in LHE at the 'TeddyKGB' club in NYC:

It's capped pre to me OTB holding A-A and I call:

Flop A-A-I don't remember. It's capped to me so I just call.

Turn: Who cares? It's capped to me so I just call.

River: I don't remember but I thought that I might hit the trifecta and it was only 2-bet to me so I threw all caution to the wind and 3-bet. Whaddaya think?

Last edited by Howard Beale; 03-20-2017 at 03:32 AM. Reason: provided for sick brag, ldo.
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Old 03-20-2017, 04:15 AM   #8
JiveDef
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Re: Stud/8 hand in which I don't raise a wheel on 5th, 6th OR 7th!

From the information given I probably just jam 5th. Especially if the crappy low board has 3 low cards on it. It's 8/16 most people can't hand read at that level (most players can't hand read at 50/100 or 100/200 either) just jam if one of the crappier boards call its worth it and if both call its really gin. And if they fold it costs you one bet but your equity goes up in the pot. Also you can have 8 lows and 7 lows that you're raising to protect your half from the crappy low hand.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:10 PM   #9
Howard Beale
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Re: Stud/8 hand in which I don't raise a wheel on 5th, 6th OR 7th!

I really don't think either would've called a raise on fifth (maybe the low, maybe) bec their boards were so bad but your take is not unreasonable. The players are generally very, very bad on third and peel horribly on fourth but most of them are regs and can find the fold button when they ought to.

It was something of a 'had to be there' and I think that I did the right thing except for the river.

And if I could find the same level of play at those stakes you mention I would cash a check and try them if I were free to travel!
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Old 03-24-2017, 01:50 AM   #10
LUCIUS VARENUS
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Re: Stud/8 hand in which I don't raise a wheel on 5th, 6th OR 7th!

One thing that carries over from flop games is if you don't raise on the flop the turn and river can kill your action on certain textures

If you catch something like a face up 2345, 2356, 2346 or whatever on 6th it's gonna be hard to get much action, but at least you got some extra money earlier by raising 5th.
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Old 04-15-2017, 06:15 AM   #11
leavesofliberty
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Re: Stud/8 hand in which I don't raise a wheel on 5th, 6th OR 7th!

You want to jam when it gets medium-large in size, large enough where they will call the two bets, but not so large that they are getting proper equity to do so. Also, lows are drawing nearly dead, so you would rather the over-callers be going for low and not high. A couple of two pairs can make a boat, and even a low can backdoor a flush. While the info is incomplete, I favor jamming sixth street. It looks like you have a low only, so many will still foolishly draw for high.
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