Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Stud Discussions of various forms of stud poker.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-17-2008, 02:24 AM   #1
Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Joe Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @JoeTall
Posts: 16,886
Razz vs Dags

Razz ($1000/$2000), Ante $200, Bring-In $300 (converter)

John DAgostino: $31,238
Seat 3: $16,621.25
Seat 4: $32,686.50
Joe Tall: $64,794

3rd Street - (0.8 SB)

John DAgostino: xx xx 4 ___raises
Seat 3: xx xx 9 ___brings-in ___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6 ___folds
Joe Tall: 9 2 5 ___completes ___calls

4th Street

John DAgostino: xx xx 4 K ___calls
Joe Tall: 9 2 5 8 ___bets

5th Street

John DAgostino: xx xx 4 K 5 ___bets
Joe Tall: 9 2 5 8 8 ___calls

6th Street

John DAgostino: xx xx 4 K 5 7 ___bets
Joe Tall: 9 2 5 8 8 6 ...................Your Action?

All comments appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Joe Tall
Joe Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2008, 02:33 AM   #2
ceegee
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ceegee's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Last, Best Hope of Western Stud
Posts: 6,412
Re: Razz vs Dags

Action is not sitting with dags =p

Likely that dags made a better hand...unless you know he is capable of raising with a 3 card 7. He is showing lot's of strength by tanking the king and betting out 5th.
My line is folding 6th, although is folding 5th an option?

I'll let the razz experts take care of this.
ceegee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2008, 03:40 AM   #3
electrical
Loaded for bear
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 3,973
Re: Razz vs Dags

Since Fourth street action is automatic given the pot size (he's getting 6:1 on a call), I don't think it tells us anything except that on Third he probably wasn't re-stealing with a pair or big'n in the hole. My first instinct was to pitch it on Fifth, but I wasn't sure, and the high ante makes for some odd situations, so I ran it:

You holding a Five makes it less likely villain has a Five, and against a range of any draw to a Nine or better you're a 2:1 dog. If we include in the range hands as bad as (T9) for his hole cards, you're still a 3:2 dog. You only need 25 percent equity for Fifth street to break even, and you have that no matter what his hole cards are, so calling here while expecting to lose the hand most of the time isn't a technical mistake.

On Sixth you are either drawing dead, significantly behind if he has an 87 made or significantly ahead if he has a pair of Sevens. You'll need to pay two more bets to find out which, and I don't think it's worth it, given that there is only one possible case where you're getting your money in ahead.

In rare cases a player will get stubborn with a bad hand, but you ferret those cases out by recalling history and other subtle cues, not by looking at the cards. The cards say fold this on Sixth. In the smaller ante games I play I'm folding this on Fifth, but there is a legitimate (though high-variance) call on Fifth given the pot size.
electrical is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2008, 01:26 PM   #4
Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Joe Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @JoeTall
Posts: 16,886
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrical View Post
Since Fourth street action is automatic given the pot size (he's getting 6:1 on a call), I don't think it tells us anything except that on Third he probably wasn't re-stealing with a pair or big'n in the hole. My first instinct was to pitch it on Fifth, but I wasn't sure, and the high ante makes for some odd situations, so I ran it:

You holding a Five makes it less likely villain has a Five, and against a range of any draw to a Nine or better you're a 2:1 dog. If we include in the range hands as bad as (T9) for his hole cards, you're still a 3:2 dog. You only need 25 percent equity for Fifth street to break even, and you have that no matter what his hole cards are, so calling here while expecting to lose the hand most of the time isn't a technical mistake.

On Sixth you are either drawing dead, significantly behind if he has an 87 made or significantly ahead if he has a pair of Sevens. You'll need to pay two more bets to find out which, and I don't think it's worth it, given that there is only one possible case where you're getting your money in ahead.

In rare cases a player will get stubborn with a bad hand, but you ferret those cases out by recalling history and other subtle cues, not by looking at the cards. The cards say fold this on Sixth. In the smaller ante games I play I'm folding this on Fifth, but there is a legitimate (though high-variance) call on Fifth given the pot size.
Awesome reply.
Joe Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2008, 01:30 PM   #5
oscillator
veteran
 
oscillator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Website Launched
Posts: 3,166
Re: Razz vs Dags

im really sorry if this comes off rude, but honest question:

is the play at 1k/2k really bad enough to justify playing it ( with an implied edge ) despite being unsure of the answer to this question!?

im assuming theres no particular reason you mentioned dags? there would have to be an amazing oop flatting to a raise one to stay in this hand past 6th ( 5th imo )

from a regulars standpoint, wildcat and yuvee would call 5th, ifish would be more apt to fold, and i would always fold unless i had a ridiculously good read ( this exception would generally require a 3 bet by me on 3rd b/c villain will hypothetically raise 1 good in the hole defending against the steal position complete, and will cap 8s and lower but flat 9+ every time ).

may i please have $40,000 dollars?
oscillator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2008, 02:40 PM   #6
Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Joe Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @JoeTall
Posts: 16,886
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by oscillator View Post
im really sorry if this comes off rude, but honest question:
Like I've said in the past, no worries with me. I just ask everyone to give a response with effort, regardless of it's merit. If you are posting here, you are looking to learn and you should be able to be open if you want to get better, imo.

Quote:
is the play at 1k/2k really bad enough to justify playing it ( with an implied edge ) despite being unsure of the answer to this question!?
1. I wouldnt be in the game if the game was not good.

2. I was sure of the answer at the time. I was unsure of what you guys thought and love to get a 2nd light so I posted it.

Quote:
im assuming theres no particular reason you mentioned dags? there would have to be an amazing oop flatting to a raise one to stay in this hand past 6th ( 5th imo )
Not sure what you mean here, Dags is my opponent in this hand, many are aware that he is an expert high stakes player, so I included his name.

Quote:
from a regulars standpoint, wildcat and yuvee would call 5th, ifish would be more apt to fold, and i would always fold unless i had a ridiculously good read ( this exception would generally require a 3 bet by me on 3rd b/c villain will hypothetically raise 1 good in the hole defending against the steal position complete, and will cap 8s and lower but flat 9+ every time ).
Do you really 3-bet here on 3rd? Not often, I suppose.

Quote:
may i please have $40,000 dollars?
Sorry, cant do that.
Joe Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2008, 02:53 PM   #7
RustyBrooks
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
RustyBrooks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 22,551
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall View Post
Do you really 3-bet here on 3rd? Not often, I suppose.
I think a very good question here is, what range WILL you 3-bet with? And in that case, how revealing is it that you don't 3bet?

I think a related question is, what's his raising range here? The reason I'd want to have a good idea of that is, it affects what my 3-betting range is.
RustyBrooks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2008, 06:11 PM   #8
SGspecial
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
SGspecial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: 1st out in the 1st ever $10k razz
Posts: 7,426
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall View Post
All comments appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Joe Tall
Comment 1: Regardless of the size of the edge you have at this table, I admire your stones for playing those kind of limits.

Comment 2: Knowing who your opponent is can be helpful, but having a specific read on his play in this game helps a lot more. Just cause he's a winning high stakes player in general doesn't mean he knows what he's doing in razz (e.g. Gus Hansen). I doubt Dags is as spewy as that, but what sort of range do you put him on initially to raise you, and then did you adjust it by the time 6th st. came?

Comment 3: Going strictly by reputation (having played very few razz hands vs. Dags), I'd imagine he would be aggressive enough to be betting 5th and 6th regardless of any split pairs since his board is better than yours. Is that a fair assessment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrical View Post
In the smaller ante games I play I'm folding this on Fifth, but there is a legitimate (though high-variance) call on Fifth given the pot size.
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning regarding the antes here. The pot as played is 7.1 bet units (SBs) when we get to 5th st, but would be 6.7 BU in a low ante game. Is your decision on 5th so close that 0.4 BU more juice is swinging it?
SGspecial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2008, 06:59 PM   #9
Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Joe Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @JoeTall
Posts: 16,886
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGspecial View Post
Comment 1: Regardless of the size of the edge you have at this table, I admire your stones for playing those kind of limits.
TY. You'd be surprised on how good the game can be. This particular game had a visit from a player that is discussed here: (Warning, this will take you to NVG, be careful.)

Quote:
Comment 2: Knowing who your opponent is can be helpful, but having a specific read on his play in this game helps a lot more. Just cause he's a winning high stakes player in general doesn't mean he knows what he's doing in razz (e.g. Gus Hansen). I doubt Dags is as spewy as that, but what sort of range do you put him on initially to raise you, and then did you adjust it by the time 6th st. came?
Great point about Gus! Dags plays better in Razz than most of them, super strong in HE/O8/Stud and I put Stud8/Razz as his weaker games in the HORSE.

Quote:
Comment 3: Going strictly by reputation (having played very few razz hands vs. Dags), I'd imagine he would be aggressive enough to be betting 5th and 6th regardless of any split pairs since his board is better than yours. Is that a fair assessment?
More than fair, yes.
Joe Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2008, 07:16 PM   #10
Andy B
Your Ad Here
 
Andy B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Unregistering
Posts: 15,017
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
(Warning, this will take you to NVG, be careful.)
Stick with Davdobrolls imo.
Andy B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2008, 10:53 PM   #11
pineapple888
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Logistics Expert
Posts: 13,112
Re: Razz vs Dags

It all looks completely standard if you fold now.

I looked at this a few times to try to find some subtlety, but I must have missed it.

Folding fifth is pretty much unthinkable when the dude is still on a draw. Then he hits and you are done.

Of course, I can't beat 2/4, so whatever.
pineapple888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 12:49 AM   #12
oscillator
veteran
 
oscillator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Website Launched
Posts: 3,166
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall View Post
Do you really 3-bet here on 3rd? Not often, I suppose.
no i dont. thats just an example of pretty much the only kind of player and action needed from an untilted person who knows were playing razz, that wont cap any hand defending against steal position regardless of his hole cards in order for me to play this hand past 5th. im a nit.

shame about the 40k. im more curious now to hear the tr from that game. things like: was this your first time playing that high? if so, what was your mindset/approach? how'd you do? thanks.
oscillator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 01:22 AM   #13
electrical
Loaded for bear
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: chicago
Posts: 3,973
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGspecial View Post
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning regarding the antes here. The pot as played is 7.1 bet units (SBs) when we get to 5th st, but would be 6.7 BU in a low ante game. Is your decision on 5th so close that 0.4 BU more juice is swinging it?
It's actually a lot less in the game I'm thinking of, $20-$40 with $3 ante and $5 B-I. Short-handed there's so little in the pot in that game that stealing is less worthwhile, so re-stealing is equally rare, and bloating the pot is not playing the structure correctly. The composite effect of all that is that Third street would probably not be played as aggressively, and since villain's hand favored the tighter end of his range, there are even fewer hands against which our piece of a Nine looks playable. I'd want to develop a playing or card edge immediately before I got stuck in the hand.

By the time it got to Fifth street, looking at paying three more big bets for a probable loser in a smaller pot, I'd pitch it.
electrical is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 01:31 AM   #14
oscillator
veteran
 
oscillator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Website Launched
Posts: 3,166
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by electrical View Post
By the time it got to Fifth street, looking at paying three more big bets for a probable loser in a smaller pot, I'd pitch it.
golden rule
oscillator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 02:00 AM   #15
Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Joe Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @JoeTall
Posts: 16,886
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by oscillator View Post
im more curious now to hear the tr from that game. things like: was this your first time playing that high? if so, what was your mindset/approach? how'd you do? thanks.
I have done well in the 500+ games. I have videos on DC of 500/1000 HORSE, I recorded this 1k/2k session. I only play when the game and seat conditions are near perfect. Frankly, they are better games than most 15 or 30 games. As for the rest, I guess I would save that for a Well-post or something like that as I could go on on on about it.


As for the hand. I nearly timed out, but was convinced he paired the 5 or 7 and figured it was marginal but a call do to some previous hands played. (which is why I loved electrical's response). I also realized that if I'm calling 6th, I'm headed to a showdown.

So I called.


John DAgostino bets $2,000
Joe Tall has 15 seconds left to act
Joe Tall calls $2,000
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to Joe Tall [9s 2h 5d 8s 8h 6c] [Th]
John DAgostino bets $2,000
Joe Tall calls $2,000
*** SHOW DOWN ***
John DAgostino shows [7d 5c 4h Ks 5s 7s Ah] K,7,5,4,A
Joe Tall shows [Th 9s 5d 8s 8h 6c 2h] 9,8,6,5,2
Joe Tall wins the pot ($19,098) with 9,8,6,5,2
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $19,100 | Rake $2
Seat 1: John DAgostino showed [7d 5c 4h Ks 5s 7s Ah] and lost with K,7,5,4,A
Seat 2: Mark Weitzman is sitting out
Seat 3: Eli Elezra folded on 3rd St.
Seat 4: theASHMAN103 folded on 3rd St.
Seat 5: Joe Tall showed [Th 9s 5d 8s 8h 6c 2h] and won ($19,098) with 9,8,6,5,2
Seat 6: 13571113 is sitting out
Joe Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 03:24 AM   #16
listening
veteran
 
listening's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: celebrating writing a Razz book...
Posts: 2,194
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall View Post
...was convinced he paired the 5 or 7...
Why? What convinced you?
listening is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 12:23 PM   #17
Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Joe Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @JoeTall
Posts: 16,886
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by listening View Post
Why? What convinced you?
All the 7s were live.

I know two of the 5s were dead but obv two are live and now two of the 6s and two of the 8s were not in his hand (yes, yes, 2 are live but you know what I mean, ldo). Given the way the game was playing and given my image at the time, and my history with him at previous hands, I was able to weigh his range to likely unpaired 7 or less on 3rd giving me about 40% equity and, what, 4+/1 to see a showdown. Since I had folded 6th/7th vs other opponents in marginal situations earlier in the session, I was aware he would likely plow into me by virtue of his board alone, so after all that and nearly timing out, I called.

Or, I could just sum this all up by an old adage that Clarkmeister taught me years ago:

"Put them on a hand you beat and call."
Joe Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 04:31 PM   #18
SGspecial
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
SGspecial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: 1st out in the 1st ever $10k razz
Posts: 7,426
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall View Post
As for the hand. I nearly timed out, but was convinced he paired the 5 or 7 and figured it was marginal but a call do to some previous hands played. (which is why I loved electrical's response). I also realized that if I'm calling 6th, I'm headed to a showdown.

So I called.
Clearly if you call 6th you have to be prepared to show it down UI as well, but the decision really isn't marginal at all. Even if there is no evidence to convince you that he paired up, both the 5 and 7 are squarely in his range and as we already said we expect him to bet 100% of the time on 5th and 6th given your board. Giving villain credit for starting with at worst a 3-card 8 (tho hero's equity is almost identical if we assume a 3-card 7 or better), the critical pot size to call down from 6th is a mere 4 BU (or 2 BB) because villain will have at least one pair about half the time, and a decent part of his range of made hands are 87's which hero can still outdraw. My analysis considered the worst case as well, where villain will rarely bluff on the end so hero can't figure on winning a big bet on 7th -- only losing one when he is beat. Obv Dags' ill-conceived bluff attempt made it an even more profitable call down.

An interesting side note to this hand is that given the right assumptions about the villain, the best play on 6th is actually to raise him! If we consider an opponent who will a) rarely bluff on the river, and b) never 3-bet without a made 7, then a raise/fold line on 6th (repping a made 86 with a healthy helping of maniac table image) will mostly likely maximize your EV. Remember that about half the time hero's hand is actually a big favorite here, and flat calling misses an opportunity to charge the villain to draw.
SGspecial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 04:31 PM   #19
listening
veteran
 
listening's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: celebrating writing a Razz book...
Posts: 2,194
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Tall View Post
All the 7s were live.

...Since I had folded 6th/7th vs other opponents in marginal situations earlier in the session, I was aware he would likely plow into me by virtue of his board alone, so after all that and nearly timing out, I called.
I would have called it myself, being a bit of a CS in these situations, (well, I'd have folded 3rd, but if I were at this 5th street I would have called) but I am less sure of using "all the 7's were live" on a short table to convince myself anyone has paired.
listening is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 04:32 PM   #20
MRBAA
veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Writing about poker
Posts: 3,382
Re: Razz vs Dags

This is the kind of hand you win when you are running good...well played.
MRBAA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 04:51 PM   #21
Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Joe Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @JoeTall
Posts: 16,886
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRBAA View Post
This is the kind of hand you win when you are running good...well played.
Sorry Carl but this doesnt make any sense.
Joe Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 04:53 PM   #22
Joe Tall
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Joe Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: @JoeTall
Posts: 16,886
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGspecial View Post
An interesting side note to this hand is that given the right assumptions about the villain, the best play on 6th is actually to raise him! If we consider an opponent who will a) rarely bluff on the river, and b) never 3-bet without a made 7, then a raise/fold line on 6th (repping a made 86 with a healthy helping of maniac table image) will mostly likely maximize your EV. Remember that about half the time hero's hand is actually a big favorite here, and flat calling misses an opportunity to charge the villain to draw.
I have to disagree that in this game, this situation, raising is insane, this showdown alone changes a lot of me in the session. But against another poster of this forum in a mid-stakes game, I can see how your line would have merit.
Joe Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2008, 06:19 PM   #23
Gallopin Gael
adept
 
Gallopin Gael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: I left my heart in Moraga
Posts: 1,173
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by listening View Post
but I am less sure of using "all the 7's were live" on a short table to convince myself anyone has paired.
I just ran some numbers on the chance of Dags having paired the 5 or the 7 given Joe's read of a non pairing 3 card 7 on 3rd.

71 combos that contain a 5 or a 7 (or both).
133 possible combos that fit the initial read (A2, A3, A5, A6, A7, 23, 25, 26, 27, 35, 36, 37, 56, 57, 67)

So there's a 53.38% chance that he paired one or both of those cards.

Now, let's say that the 9 that folded was a 7 instead.

That would mean there would be 56 possible combos that contain a 5 or 7 (or both) and 118 total combos that fit the initial read.

In that case there would be a 47.46% chance that he had paired one or both of his cards.

So having all the 7's live for Dags to pair makes it more likely that Joe is ahead (given his read) on 6th.
Gallopin Gael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2008, 12:35 AM   #24
theDetroitKid
grinder
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: southern france
Posts: 427
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallopin Gael View Post
I just ran some numbers on the chance of Dags having paired the 5 or the 7 given Joe's read of a non pairing 3 card 7 on 3rd.

71 combos that contain a 5 or a 7 (or both).
133 possible combos that fit the initial read (A2, A3, A5, A6, A7, 23, 25, 26, 27, 35, 36, 37, 56, 57, 67)

So there's a 53.38% chance that he paired one or both of those cards.

Now, let's say that the 9 that folded was a 7 instead.

That would mean there would be 56 possible combos that contain a 5 or 7 (or both) and 118 total combos that fit the initial read.

In that case there would be a 47.46% chance that he had paired one or both of his cards.

So having all the 7's live for Dags to pair makes it more likely that Joe is ahead (given his read) on 6th.
nice analysis, did you do this math with a program? or by hand?
theDetroitKid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2008, 12:58 AM   #25
Gallopin Gael
adept
 
Gallopin Gael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: I left my heart in Moraga
Posts: 1,173
Re: Razz vs Dags

Quote:
Originally Posted by theDetroitKid View Post
nice analysis, did you do this math with a program? or by hand?
by hand, with the help of SG's card removal effect article.
Gallopin Gael is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v2.0.33 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online