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Razz - Stealing + When to do it

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03-17-2017 , 10:51 AM

LUCIUS VARENUS

Soldier of Minbet

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 10,461

Folds to you. 8 handed.

Say there is a card a-8 between you and the bring in, and you also have one of these cards in the door. The bring in is a paint.

Say for the purpose of this example, your hole cards do not matter, since you are bluffing and do not intend to go to showdown.

Should you complete, and with what frequency?

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03-17-2017 , 01:41 PM

chuckr1

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 75

Wouldn't this depend on how tight/loose the remaining players are? I play low stakes on Stars and players VIP can be all over the place.

CC

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03-17-2017 , 05:47 PM

monikrazy

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Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,046

All cards matter, be more specific

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03-19-2017 , 02:20 AM

RolldUpTrips

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,334

Quote:

Originally Posted by monikrazy

All cards matter, be more specific

This. And I'll add that, to a certain extent, hole cards matter. This is limit. You often end up showing down. I don't raise without a second good one so that I can at least back into something.

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03-19-2017 , 07:13 PM

asymbacguy

banned

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 380

As already stated, mostly it depends about the table you are playing in.

Then there are objective card factors as whether the remaining last low card has a legitimate low hand (quite low probability, in a 8-way pot nearly 20% of total hands don't get an 8 or better low hand), how low is your doorcard and if it's duplicated (this feature tend to work or not for different reasons).

It seems that in the same scenario the player showing the last low card will raise by a well higher frequency than what the probability to get a real legitimate hand dictates.

So a possible 4-bet or fold move should be in order leaving the call the least favourable option.

Last edited by asymbacguy; 03-19-2017 at 07:37 PM.

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03-19-2017 , 11:05 PM

RustyBrooks

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Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 24,647

My default is going to be to raise. Once you do it a few times, you'll have to see how he responds to it. And that response goes beyond one street. Is he going to give up every 5th where your board is better? Then I am still raising every time. Is he going to re-raise light? Then I am going to need to slow down. And so forth.

P.S. if you're playing against anyone even remotely decent you need to start re-raising them when they complete in bring in position when you have any kind of reasonable hand, even like a smooth T.

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03-20-2017 , 02:34 AM

Ray Zee

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Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,916

the two best times to steal is when its you and only one low card behind you. in a full game.

and when someone ahead of you likely is stealing then reraise him and get him to fold sometime during the hand unless the board goes bad for you.

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03-21-2017 , 08:01 AM

ScotchOnDaRocks

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Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 7,200

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS

Your hole cards do matter, so in general with one low card left to go through you should basically complete almost always when you have another low card in the hole. That is the frequency randomizer. Read Sklansky on Poker if you haven't already.

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03-21-2017 , 12:33 PM

LUCIUS VARENUS

Soldier of Minbet

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 10,461

What if you have a pair of 9s or two paints instead? Or rolled up?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

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03-21-2017 , 02:44 PM

#10

ScotchOnDaRocks

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Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 7,200

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS

What if you have a pair of 9s or two paints instead? Or rolled up?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Why steal with those hands as opposed to when you have a two card low? Your hole cards matter because sometimes you are just called and if they catch bad and still call you on 4th you are tied

Rolled up has a little value due to card removal but that's not worth as much as the potential out that a two card brings

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03-22-2017 , 11:24 AM

#11

LUCIUS VARENUS

Soldier of Minbet

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 10,461

OK I see what you're saying.

So what frequency will an 8 or better door card have a 3 card 8 or better?

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03-22-2017 , 12:38 PM

#12

RustyBrooks

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Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 24,647

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS

OK I see what you're saying.

So what frequency will an 8 or better door card have a 3 card 8 or better?

About 25% absent info about door cards

There are going to be 7 unpairing low cards, 4 each for a total of 28 cards. So there are 28 cards possible for his first hole card, and 24 for the next, a total of 28*24 combos.

There are 52 possibilities for the first and 51 for the 2nd, a total of 52*51.

So the fraction that is a 3-card 8 is 28*24/52*51 = 25.3%

It'll be less if there are folded low cards, and more if there lots of folded high cards.

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03-23-2017 , 12:55 AM

#13

Ray Zee

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Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,916

that is why unless you have a player that will re-bluff you well, you will always raise with one low only behind you if you have a low upcard..

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03-26-2017 , 05:24 PM

#14

HiatusOver

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,513

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Zee

that is why unless you have a player that will re-bluff you well, you will always raise with one low only behind you if you have a low upcard..

What would your definition of "re-bluff" well be?

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03-26-2017 , 05:24 PM

#15

HiatusOver

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 1,513

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyBrooks

Any chance you can do this number for 3-card 9 and 10? I have done it in the past but would be nice to have my work checked

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04-03-2017 , 02:47 AM

#16

leavesofliberty

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Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

Quote:

Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips

This. And I'll add that, to a certain extent, hole cards matter. This is limit. You often end up showing down. I don't raise without a second good one so that I can at least back into something.

Agreed, also if you always steal in this situation, your opponent will adjust to your play. When you semi-bluff, and are less frequent, your opponent may well be still asleep to the notion that you're stealing. Usually players when they suspect you've been stealing all along with start to play back at you on 3rd.

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