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 04-18-2012, 08:10 AM #1 journeyman     Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 281 Quick Razz Simulation Help Im quiet familiar with http://www.propokertools.com/simulations, but I need your help on this. Appreciate any reply that might help. I need to simulate Razz Heads-Up Situations with Top/Bottom-Ranges. In Omaha this is no problem, but how do I simulate e.g. 569 vs (25%)6? Thanks for your help
 04-18-2012, 08:15 AM #2 journeyman     Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 281 Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help Apparently this is not possible. Does anyone know how to calculate the "breaking-point" for e.g. 25% with which I could simulate 569 vs (breakingpoint-25%)6 and 569 vs (100%)6=(**)6 ? I would use a linear function to describe the increament between those breaking points. Anyone?
 04-18-2012, 08:49 AM #3 Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Now with 100% more seaside views Posts: 18,705 Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help 1)Figure out what the top 25% is in razz, then 2)run a sim with that range as the downcards. The values of playable razz hands are relatively straightforward. There are a few exceptions, i.e. T2A > 987, but most times WYSIWYG. You already know one of the three cards you're against, so all you need to do is figure out the range the other two fall into. For your example, {top25%}6, we can eyeball that as top 50% * top 50%. There are 28 aces through eights (minus sixes) in the deck for the second card and 24 (minus the first two cards) for the third. 28/51 * 24/50 = 26%. The twenty sixth percentile hand is therefore (87)6. Note that, not counting dead cards, bikes are largely identical in razz so the lowest range anyone cares about assuming a wheel upcard is 16/51 * 12/50 = 7.5%. Not the most efficient way, but good enough during a game.
04-18-2012, 10:54 AM   #4
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2006
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Posts: 6,556
Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help

Quote:
 Originally Posted by adanthar 1)Figure out what the top 25% is in razz, then 2)run a sim with that range as the downcards. The values of playable razz hands are relatively straightforward. There are a few exceptions, i.e. T2A > 987, but most times WYSIWYG. You already know one of the three cards you're against, so all you need to do is figure out the range the other two fall into. For your example, {top25%}6, we can eyeball that as top 50% * top 50%. There are 28 aces through eights (minus sixes) in the deck for the second card and 24 (minus the first two cards) for the third. 28/51 * 24/50 = 26%. The twenty sixth percentile hand is therefore (87)6. Note that, not counting dead cards, bikes are largely identical in razz so the lowest range anyone cares about assuming a wheel upcard is 16/51 * 12/50 = 7.5%. Not the most efficient way, but good enough during a game.
agree on your estimate of top 25% of downcard ranges in terms of equity, but not sure about your comparison of T2A and 987. While (T2)A is a much better starter than (98)7, it doesn't have an equity edge if the two hands are HU. It does, however, have more equity vs. OP's example of 965 than does 987.

OP: sounds like what you want to sim is how much equity your hand has against a range that is something like the top 50%, but excluding the top 25%?

 04-18-2012, 11:01 AM #5 Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Now with 100% more seaside views Posts: 18,705 Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help I mean that in the sense of T2A being in a bunch of reasonable "top x%" ranges where 987 won't be, similar to something like a decently playable wrap vs. bad kings in Omaha (bad kings have an equity edge but will rarely be played IRL) or Q7o vs. 65s in NLHE etc. Razz has very few of those and the ranges where they do happen are almost exclusively in situations where people are raising 50%+, so it's not a huge deal if you just eyeball it this way.
 04-18-2012, 11:25 AM #6 Carpal \'Tunnel   Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Lafayette, LA Posts: 6,023 Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help I have a question about sims also. Say you have A584 and you are simming against a range of (**)25. Say the person raised your completion on 3rd but you have seen him raise with a hand like (AT)2 before so technically know a T is in his "range". So you'd sim (8-T-)2 for example. Is this simulator assuming the hands are played an equal number of times? Say he is raising a hand like (AT)2 just 15% of the time but raising (54)2 100% of the time. Is there a simulator that let's you account for this? Seems like a sim can be a bit misleading in cases like this. Last edited by camz2895; 04-18-2012 at 11:26 AM. Reason: don't mean to derail OP's thread but i was thinking of this yesterday and didnt know if a new thread was appropriate after se
 04-18-2012, 01:22 PM #7 Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 15,089 Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help Camz, the only way to accomodate that kind of thing (simply) is to run sims for each subset of the range, and then make a weighted average. So let's say you have a range where you can divide it into 2 sub-ranges, where range1 is 1/3 of the range and range2 is 2/3 of the range. E1 is equity for range 1 and E2 is equity for range 2, then equity = 1/3*E1 + 2/3*E2 and so forth. I usually do these kinds of things with spreadsheets, if I must. Occaisonally we want to do something like "this whole range, except this sub-range" like if a guy limp calls with xx5 then you might put his range as (8- 8- 5) but not (6- 6- 5) because he would have raised that. This is really pretty hard to do, you basically have to do (8 7- 5) and (7 6- 5) etc.
04-18-2012, 02:23 PM   #8
journeyman

Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 281
Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SGspecial OP: sounds like what you want to sim is how much equity your hand has against a range that is something like the top 50%, but excluding the top 25%?

No. I just need Bottom OR/AND Top Range. TOP Range is more important OFC. So All-In Equity vs Top x%.

04-18-2012, 02:36 PM   #9
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lafayette, LA
Posts: 6,023
Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RustyBrooks Camz, the only way to accomodate that kind of thing (simply) is to run sims for each subset of the range, and then make a weighted average. So let's say you have a range where you can divide it into 2 sub-ranges, where range1 is 1/3 of the range and range2 is 2/3 of the range. E1 is equity for range 1 and E2 is equity for range 2, then equity = 1/3*E1 + 2/3*E2 and so forth. I usually do these kinds of things with spreadsheets, if I must. Occaisonally we want to do something like "this whole range, except this sub-range" like if a guy limp calls with xx5 then you might put his range as (8- 8- 5) but not (6- 6- 5) because he would have raised that. This is really pretty hard to do, you basically have to do (8 7- 5) and (7 6- 5) etc.
Yea weighting it would be the most practical solution...was jut wondering if there was a sim that did all the work for me

04-18-2012, 05:47 PM   #10
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ceteris paribus
Posts: 6,556
Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help

Quote:
 Originally Posted by camz2895 Yea weighting it would be the most practical solution...was jut wondering if there was a sim that did all the work for me
apparently you have rubbed the lamp and out popped a genie named bachfan

 04-18-2012, 08:40 PM #11 journeyman     Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 281 Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help yehaa
04-18-2012, 09:09 PM   #12

Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 851
Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SGspecial apparently you have rubbed the lamp and out popped a genie named bachfan
*POP*

I will grant you these THREE wishes.... Or not. But it was fun popping out of the lamp. The initial implementation of weighted ranges will be hold'em and omaha only - I will expand to the stud games eventually, however.

- bachfan

04-19-2012, 02:43 AM   #13
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lafayette, LA
Posts: 6,023
Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help

Quote:
 Originally Posted by SGspecial apparently you have rubbed the lamp and out popped a genie named bachfan
Quote:
 Originally Posted by bachfan *POP* I will grant you these THREE wishes.... Or not. But it was fun popping out of the lamp. The initial implementation of weighted ranges will be hold'em and omaha only - I will expand to the stud games eventually, however. - bachfan
awesome!!11one11!!

 04-19-2012, 03:57 AM #14 veteran   Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 2,273 Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help bachfan is basically a genie, imo. With the current syntax however, it wouldnt be too terrible to calculate OP's question by hand. Just find the Top 25% of 2 card downs from xx6 where x is 8 or lower. Then use current PPT syntax to find that equity %age.
04-20-2012, 11:16 AM   #15
Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ceteris paribus
Posts: 6,556
Re: Quick Razz Simulation Help

Quote:
 Originally Posted by bachfan *POP* I will grant you these THREE wishes.... Or not. But it was fun popping out of the lamp. The initial implementation of weighted ranges will be hold'em and omaha only - I will expand to the stud games eventually, however. - bachfan
sweet! Of course, we all realize the stud games have to sit at the back of the bus

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