In the well known book on stud-8, the author asks the following...

Should you play 2d6h7c type often?

He says no. He also says that they should be discarded
"especially in games with a high ante".

Why would you play tighter when the ante is higher?
I would think this marginal hand becomes more playable when the ante is
higher.

What is the logic that I am missing?

I also suspect that this kind of hand is very playable when you are in late
position (with respect to bring in) and the bet has not been completed. Most
likely you are not facing a better current low, since such hands would have likely raised.

But against a completion by a low card, I imagine this hand is junk. Similarly, I would treat (Ad8h)6c as junk, despite the ace. What is not clear to me is the value of (Ad7h)6c vs a completion by a low card. My current thinking is that drawing to a 7 with an Ace is OK, but drawing to an 8 is asking to be slaughtered even with an Ace. Is this thinking correct, or do I really need a better low to play this kind of no flush, no straight, low hand? How much of a difference hinges on having the Ace vs having a low wheel card. Can (Ad7h)6c call a non-steal raise, for example?

Good questions sir. Hopefully Ray and some other stud8 experts will weigh in. One thing I have learned about the game is that an A isn't just the best card, it's the best by a mile.

The operative word is 'often.'

He'll be along sooner or later and hopefully explain the high ante aspect which I'm wondering about also.

Not commenting on the high-ante/fold razz hands part yet.

Depending on the liveness of cards and prospect of running opponents off their hands if you catch a card that is either good or looks good, you should not consider any 3-low with an Ace a "trash" hand. Uncoordinated razz hands without an Ace can often be essentially worthless, but the Ace is such a powerful card that it makes even crap like (86)A a reasonable holding if Aces and fill cards are live.

If, for example, a Jack opens and you have (86)A behind you would most often raise if Aces and low cards are live, because you want razzy low hands behind you to fold, as well as hands like (44)7 which currently have you beat and could siphon value from your low draw if they continue, and there are so many ways for you to outplay a one-pair hand.

If you can't isolate then tossing the worst of these hands is fine since their principle value is HU against a one-way hand of either stripe.

Just random ramblings here, but...

From my perspective, and there's a whole lot of "it depends" in Stud8, but with a rough Razz hand in a big pot, you can get trapped drawing very thin with little or no scoop equity.

Limit poker in general is about not making self-weighting errors on a recurring basis.

Big ante game, the pot looks bigger than it is because your Razz hand usually is one-way only. It can be a trap.

Obviously the "it depends" has to do with how many other lows are out there on 3rd, which card is in your door - so if the 2 is your door card, maybe you have a playing edge?

Problem there is, in a big ante game, the pot gets big enough where too many hands stay too long so your playing edge with the 2 in the door is minimized?

So illuminating. Thanks.

Wait, isn't half the pot in a big ante game bigger than half the pot in a small ante game?

Of course it is, but the point in the book is to fold the hand in the big ante game which you'd fold in a small ante game.

What I was trying to say there is that the big ante keeps more players in and a rough Razz hand doesn't want too many opponents going low.

I think in a big ante game, a marginal hand like 876 becomes more playable than 762 because it has more scoop equity.

I'm walkin' the plank here, really need Ray to weigh in.

So you should play tighter in any big ante stud game then you would in a smaller ante game? What are the requirements for ante/big bet ratio to be considered small or big?

This is definitely not true. In general the opposite is true.

I always thought the bigger the ante the looser your starters. Good to know I'm doing one thing 1/2 right in this game.

Correct, but there are still some marginal hands you don't add even when you loosen up.

I don't currently have access to this book (messy divorce), so have a couple of questions:

Is it the book's premise that high-ante games will be more likely heads up, or more likely with multiple players?

Does it specify an up card for this hand?

There are only two things that I can think of re the high ante aspect:

There will often be multi way pots and you don't want to be in very many of them w/ a razz type hand, better to wait for something a bit better

Or

Ray Zee is wrong.

I can't recall playing Stud8 w/ an especially high ante (I play low to midstakes) except the games on Bovada which I didn't like (and that's only iirc).

I guess we wait for Ray to pop in and explain himself.

Solid analysis; thanks for this post.

He will come here himself to answer that lol

i dont remember the context of what i wrote there but in bigger ante games you change some of the hands you play with as well as play a few more hands in general. so you do play looser but play different hands and play more aggressive with some.

that hand turns to complete trash in spots where they will jam more or bluff you out.
or where you get into three handed pots where you are laying two to one on the money. that is the worst spot to be in with a hand you dont know where you stand.

in more aggressive games i would stay away from hands that are one way low hands. which high ante games are. in smaller stake games which may be lower ante games you can see where you stand more often and also get to make your hand cheaper.

that sounds wrong but you get less raises or at least reraises in smaller ante games so you spend less to make your hands.

Questions:
In 6/12 EO, they use 2$ ante. Which is big ante
Should I complete more with 3 wheel card?

That is a very big ante, but I'm guessing they take a very big drop as well. If they drop nothing (or only $1) for an ante steal, and you actually have a chance to steal, I would think you should try very often. If you have no chance to win on 3rd street and the house will take almost half the antes on 4th street, you probably shouldn't loosen up that much.