The point is, there is more in the bottle: the game is not extracting the maximum possible playing power from the ranking system, which means it's sub-optimal. But you can't miss what you've never experienced so it seems natural, and will remain so as long as long as you don't try something better.

Stud players also see nothing wrong with their game, even when it's obvious problems and their causes are pointed out. If they had overcome their prejudices and got behind Stud-with-a-flip (aka mississippi) , then Stud (in it's modern forms) would still be a major game, with large no-limit tournaments, high-stakes nl cash games and a TV presence.

Stud, in it's current form, would not be played at all if it was invented today, and only persists in the current market because it has a reputation which it built up when it was the only seven-card game in the world.

think the point is that there is a better game than stud, and it's hold'em. It could be the next big change will be some sort of hybrid betting that allows the skill and interest of no limit but makes it a bit less brutal on the bad players - like a $1-2 n/l with a $50 max bet.

They have this, it's called spread limit It's only popular in places that for legal reasons can't have unlimited hold thems.

Stud Popularity as of 12noon EST today

According to www.bravopokerlive.com

Borgata has:
20/40 Stud - 1 table
75/150 Stud - 1 table

Foxwoods has:
1/3 Stud - 1 table
10/20 Stud - 1 table
1-5 spread Stud - 4 tables
5/10 Stud - 2 tables
20/40 Stud - 2 tables
75/150 Stud - 1 table

It is the Limit format that will prevent any ressurgence of stud.

Contrary to what has been posted, stud works very well in a PL form. In fact, before holdem took off in the UK, PL stud was the most popular game. Limit was never ever played only PL and occassionally half pot limit. In the PL the high card BI. There was plenty of action and often the opportunity to get your stack in the middle.

Years ago, I played on Microgaming. They ran PL stud. But, for some idiotic reason they made the low card BI and this spoilt the action.

I think the way back, is for Pokerstars to introduce PL games. Maybe, then stud will take off and be "the next big thing".

TWo issues here: firstly, which is technically superior: Stud as it is now dealt in the 3-1-1-1-1 layout, or Stud-with-a-flip, using a 3-2-1-1 layout? In a blind test you can expect 95%+ to prefer Stud-with-a-flip because it produces a wider range of playable poker hands, and gives much better value for a first round call, among other technical advantages.

If we make the same blind test - say with some players who have been taught Draw poker only - and introduce players to Holdem, Stud-with-a-flip, old Stud and maybe holdem dealt in a 2-2-1-1-1 layout, the two top games will be Holdem and Stud-with-a-flip, and almost no-one will prefer the five-round games which lack a draw to five cards at the second round. Old stud would have no chance at all of being in the top two.

On the issue of comparing Stud-with-a-flip to Holdem, in a blind test many, perhaps even most, will prefer Stud-with-a-flip because starting with 3/5 of a hand offers so many possibilities, and if you do have a starting hand, your chances of improving on the flip are comparable, and some cases superior to Holdem. Certainly the result would in no way resemble the absolute dominance currently enjoyed by Holdem. That might be hard to concede, but Holdem is an acquired taste for players who start out playing other forms of Poker: players like having their own set of cards, and the two-card start does not create a lot of powerful starting hands.

The current market is hopelessly distorted due to the technical failings of old Stud, and in a level-playing field the situation would be rather different. Holdem will always be the favourite of online providers, but there is room for a massive increase in Stud, based on the high-stakes NL potential of Stud-with-a-flip, and the much more attractive layouts of it's Razz and High-low variants.

I know a lot of people here play high stakes, so my concerns are not relevant to many. At 1/2, 2/4, 3/6, and 5/10 I am always worried about collusion at these levels after the Chinese collusion rings awhile ago (2008+). Stars said it took care of the problem. But when you open up the Pokerstars client, you can see that the same 2 Chinese guys are sitting on a ton of tables with just those two players and one is always sitting out. It is not just these two players, you can see different combinations of 2 Chinese guys and not playing.

If you try to start a table you get two of them joining, and I am not going to try to start a table with them. They may even be playing fairly, but with those thoughts in the back of my mind, I do not want to play them. I am not in the right state of mind even if they are playing honest. The rake is high enough at these low levels, I do not need to worry about losing another 1BB+ to my winrate because two guys can see 6 cards that I cannot see. You also see two at every active table. I am not going to play them SH and I do not like to play them in full ring.

This is a quote from StevenW of Pokerstars Game Security
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...6&postcount=96
"Hello,

We have extensively reviewed the "Fujian Province" / "Changle" Stud players on multiple occasions over a long period of time, including once quite recently. Extensive hand histories were reviewed looking for hole card sharing each time, and no hint of this was found."

They said there was nothing wrong four years ago and need us to start threads and data analysis on 2p2, in order to "discover" it. I just lost a ton of faith in playing Stud online because of this stuff and I feel this is another reason why Stud may never be huge.

in my opinion a big part of it is that stud is much better as a live game as opposed to online. Not as easy to multitable as holdem, and live keeping track of the cards keeps you more engaged in the game. LLive stud being 8 handed instead of 9 or 10 lets you play more hands, and hands don't take as long with it being limit as opposed to nl. In my opinion live I prefer stud and online holdem.

mrbaa I think plo would fit what youre looking for, it just needs to take off as a low limit game.

live entry level players must play limit or they get knocked out too quickly and dont get to move up the ladder. ultimately no limit at the smaller stakes kills the games.

stud may come back as it is a great game and only died as holdem hit the tv stations.

Ray, the graph has been pointing downwards for thirty years or so and the arrival of Holdem on tv only accelerated a well-established trend. So, how can you pretend that this is a temporary phenomenon? Draw and five-card stud were big games too, and so were flat poker, and brag. None of them is ever going to regain a significant market share, and the same goes for Down the River. Stud does have a big future, but not in it's current forms, which are technologically outdated for the same reason as Flat Poker, ie, because they both lack a draw to five cards at the second round.

And to answer the OP, putting Stud on tv would not significantly increase it's following, because people want to see a full-contact game, with big bluffs, big lay-downs and big calls, which involve blood sweat fear and courage. Stud, in it's current form, cannot deliver those things. No one is interested in watching someone deciding whether or not to call a bet of 1/10th of the pot on the river, and these days, few are interested in playing like that either, and who can blame them?

Stud is a potentially great game because it starts on third street - which is the best starting proposition IMO - and it finishes on seventh street, which is the optimal number for extracting maximum value from the five-card rankings. It died because the rest of the game is flawed, which makes it unsuitable for NL cash and tournament play.

(Holdem and Omaha are both seven-street games, BTW, if you count them stud-style: ie, omaha starts with a selection of two-card hands, rather than on "fourth street" in Stud terms.)

Online play solves the problem because beginners can play real poker for a few pennies, which isn't practical in a B+M cardroom, and they can learn the game as they go. They might try FL, and Stud out of curiosity, but they almost all quickly return to NL,.

The fact that low stakes NL cash and tournament play is very attractive to beginners is a major factor in the poker boom, and yet here you are saying that it kills the games! With due respect for your knowledge of many aspects of Poker, that's just BS. If FL was all that was available then Poker would not be nearly as popular as it is. There would be no tv poker, no Moneymaker effect and no poker boom, or at least, nothing like what we have seen. But if PL/NL was all that was available it would be almost as popular, since it accounts for over 90% of play today.

FL only survives at the level it does because Stud and it's variants are not much good for anything else, so mixed games must use it. When Stud is dealt in the modern way, with four rounds of play instead of five, then it's suitable for PL/NL, and Razz and Highlow can be played with half-pot betting, maybe even PL, if you are crazy enough. When that happens, the FL mixed-game format will be overtaken by mixed 1/2pot, PL/NL games.

BINGO ! Oh, and the average age of stud players @ $10/20 and below is 65+... I truly believe that this has an effect on recreational & younger players wanting to try the game.
Why would anyone want to play in a game where the same guys play every single day, playing so tight that it hurts ?

It's dying a slow, painful death in AC, once the stronghold of 7 card stud.
IMHO, it'll eventually be played only at high limits, or as part of a mixed game. Sad but true...

I'm a relatively new player to stud. I spent about a week grinding it on the ipoker netowork last year sometime and the action was pretty dead. There were times when there were no tables running at $0.25/0.50 and $0.5/1 and I would try and start it. For someone who never played stud, even I realised that the level of play was dire.

I must say that those times I did play it, I did enjoy it and learned a huge amount. It's a nice game to play when you want a change from NL games. It can also bring something to your no limit game.

However, most of my poker friends weren't interested in learning it or even trying it out once they heard it was limit. People want action and they want it quickly.

Look at the growing popularity of the hyper turbo games. People want something that's quick and has lots of all ins. People want a moment and unfortunately stud doesn't really offer that.

A game that would appeal might be PL Super Stud? I played it once and it had plenty of action!

not lilkely it will ever be more popular than holdem as it once was. not likely will it come back strong on line, as said more players want faster action.
but live it has a chance if the no limit part of holdem dies down which i think it will at some point. only time will tell.

Maybe because the antes are so small/drop is so big that tight = right? Raise the antes, lower the drop (for low stakes ldo), and you'll have an action game again.

Everytime I read 7 Card Stud for Advanced Players I realize what a great game it is.