Game structure

.01 ante
.02 bring
.04 completion
.08 big bet

Nobody ever folds.

Since the completion is only 2x the bring, basically it's hardly ever a huge mistake to keep calling with almost complete trash, especially since there are always so many people in that the pot odds are huge.

After continuously beating my head against the wall in these games and the level right above with an analogous structure and same level of incompetence, I'm starting to wonder if this is just a pure gambling game. I can't see where the edge is here.

So here's some math I have done:

If you play 100 hands of stud at the limits mentioned above, and assume every hand there are 3 other people with completely random hands who stay in at least to 5th and then one drops off and the other two stay to the river and one puts a bet in on the river (pretty standard for these limits).

If you play 25% of hands

You will fold 75 hands = -$.88

You will lose 15 hands = -$4.80
You will win 10 hands = $6.40

This gives you a net profit of $.72 or 9BB/100.

However, This is assuming that you play perfectly and that all opponents have COMPLETELY random hands. Even though they seem to, they probably actually don't so real win rate is actually much lower than this.

And to make this amount that is actually significantly less than $.72, one must play 100 hands which takes an hour and a half.

So playing micro limit stud is worse than working in a sweat shop in the most poverty stricken countries in the world. 7 Card Stud for Advanced Players states that great stud players make more than great holdem players. This is clearly not true. Perfect stud players, make a lot less than even average winning holdem players at the same stakes!

I like playing stud... please somebody give me some reason to keep playing...

Do you think you'd make more playing 4c/8c LHE?

You're right, I was comparing apples to oranges. I was comparing win rates at NL tables.

In fact, Merge runs PL 7CS and the games are very lucrative. The usual crowd that plays Merge PL Stud are very very bad, but then so are most who play the limit games at pokerstars. But yes, the point is PL stud and a table full of horrible players is indeed much more profitable than limit stud and the same table. However, I do also see the problem because once I start cleaning the PLStud players out, they start dropping off and the game breaks up. Hard to sustain a game where the fish can't win.

One thing is that rake is a HUGE problem in limit games. In my stats for all the stud I have ever played that got stored in FPDB, I am beating the games for 6BB/100 before rake, but only 3BB/100 after rake! At no limit games, rake doesn't cut into profit nearly as much when playing against bad players.

i, for myself, just decided to play tournaments only untill i have a roll for stud8 2/4$.
its way more fun and i think its more profitable to play the niche-variants in tournament form,
as long as you cant play stakes that regulary get the rake capped (at 3 instead of 4.5% rake).
at limits of 2/4$ and higher you have a more enjoyable game and produce more rake(and rakeback),
while paying a lower percentage of rake compared to the stakes.

You find stud tourneys that regularly run? The only stud tourneys that exist on P* are $1.50 and $3.50. They rarely have enough players to start.

To play 2/4 I'd like about a $2000 bankroll and I'm nowhere near there. I might have to grind the NLHE tables to make money to move up in stud :-)

LOL @ 2k to play 2/4 imo. that kind of BR restriction will make sure you take forever to move to midstakes. also you shouldnt really expect to make $ at micro stakes poker, and grinding a roll from 4c/8c to playing 1/2-2/4 will take a very long time. you'd be better studying the game alot instead, and then depositing $3-400 and playing .5/1-1/2.

my 2c.

Maybe I am being overly conservative. You would say that 300 big bets is enough to weather the variance in stud?

I have no way to deposit, so losing my roll on P* means a huge hassle trying to get a transfer for a PayPal transfer or something, so I need to make sure I don't go broke due to a streak of bad luck.

well I a razz is my speciality but also playing in triple stud tournament,I am now regular at 1/2 razz tables one thing is sure YES YOU CAN beat micro limits,expecialy on lowest levels when you catch nuts there are realy good chance to win multiway pot with 3 sometimes 4 players calling allthe way to the end

stars has 5 STUD MTT's, two 8,80 turbo rebuy and 1.50$/3.50$/22$ standards.
although you can play the triple-stud MTT's, which run at 5.50$ 4 times a day and 2.20$ turbos all the time.
just learn correct play on 3rd and 4th street in stud8 and get a bit experience in razz, then you should do pretty well in those, too. the 5.50$ has 15 minute blind-levels (3x5) and isnt that hard to beat with such a decent structure.

i think 300BB for cashgame is okay, if you drop down one level as soon as you have less then 200BB.

I'll try not to spend it all in one place

You are folding too often. Also, you have to really pump your equity when you are ahead. These things are hard to figure out, and because things can shift so quickly in HI, it can make you feel stupid when you lose hands and hit a dry streak. You have to do it anyway to win long term unfortunately.

The short hand is BET and RAISE when you are ahead. Only fold when your pot odds or reverse implied odds dictate you should. If you really dont know and just call when you can't figure it out, you are doing it wrong.

You don't need to be able to hand read at these stakes. So, it is a good place to practice the other things if you are incredibly patient.