Is it OK to limp with 9(wheel-wheel) into a wheel in razz? - Stud Poker

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Is it OK to limp with 9(wheel-wheel) into a wheel in razz?

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08-23-2015 , 02:56 PM

betgo

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Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

I was watching a video that said you could limp into a tricky player here, but always raise into a straight forward player. I posted a hand here a few years ago when and old school player, I think Ray Zee, said the play is to raise. It seems like your hand is face up, but you would get more information about your opponent's hand by raising, as well as getting some folds.

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08-23-2015 , 05:53 PM

Joe Tall

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What were the dead cards?

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08-23-2015 , 07:00 PM

betgo

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Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tall

What were the dead cards?

You are implying that you don't mind building the pot if your cards are duplicated and your opponent's up card isn't. So if you had (27)9 or something, it might also be better to limp?

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08-23-2015 , 07:19 PM

Joe Tall

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Originally Posted by betgo

You are implying that you don't mind building the pot if your cards are duplicated and your opponent's up card isn't. So if you had (27)9 or something, it might also be better to limp?

I'm saying that Stud analysis needs to be looked at by hand, no two hands are the same, even when the starting three cards are.

A29, with AA2 folded, and 8799 left to act is different from:
A29 UTG with, 334456K left to act.

This is not hold'em where you only have player reads, in Stud games we have more information that we need to process first.

Last edited by Joe Tall; 08-23-2015 at 07:33 PM.

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08-23-2015 , 07:44 PM

betgo

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Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

I meant where you had a 9 and 2 wheel cards and there was only one wheel card left to act. In the case in the video, there was only a low card to act and the bringin. If there are multiple players to act with low cards, it is obviously usually a fold, and even if there is another 9 or T to act, that weakens your prospect somewhat.

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08-23-2015 , 10:12 PM

betgo

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

We are talking about a generic situation with a 9-wheel-wheel and only a wheel as the significant card left to act. Of course you need to look at dead cards.

Both I and the video author know how to play stud games, although I have seen mixed games videos lately by NLHE players who were not good at other games.

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08-23-2015 , 10:17 PM

Davdob

veteran

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2,068

I don't play Razz outside of mixed games, but if one un-duplicated wheel upcard is left to play, I would assume it is entirely read dependent. If you have a guy that will fold without a 8 or better under, just raise. If you have a guy that will kick you in the balls until the river with ATC under, let's get ready to gamble. In-between, you have to make a call.

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08-24-2015 , 12:56 AM

Howard Beale

Formerly red

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 22,190

What Joe Tall said and also how in the world do you know that you're raising into a better hand just bec his up card is lower than yours?

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08-24-2015 , 02:50 AM

betgo

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howard Beale

What Joe Tall said and also how in the world do you know that you're raising into a better hand just bec his up card is lower than yours?

Obviously, you don't know it is better. In fact, on average you have the better hand.

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08-24-2015 , 03:27 AM

#10

Fold&Forget

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 341

Even with bad dead cards we are favorite vs one random hand with low up card without blockers

ProPokerTools Razz Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

dead cards: A2237J

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
459	59.58%	357,255	429
**6	40.42%	242,316	429

We could limp vs aggro to trap him, but why should we limp otherwise?

Last edited by Fold&Forget; 08-24-2015 at 03:49 AM.

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08-24-2015 , 11:25 AM

#11

SGspecial

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fold&Forget

Even with bad dead cards we are favorite vs one random hand with low up card without blockers

ProPokerTools Razz Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

dead cards: A2237J

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
459	59.58%	357,255	429
**6	40.42%	242,316	429

We could limp vs aggro to trap him, but why should we limp otherwise?

I think this is more like the "bad dead card" scenario people are referring to:

ProPokerTools Razz Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

dead cards: A2237J

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
459	51.72%	310,252	166
**2	48.28%	289,582	166

Also, my advice is to think of your strategy as a line if play here, rather than "what's my best play on 3rd" followed by a bunch of ????? on 4th and 5th. It may help clarify why having a hot/cold equity edge vs. a random range may not be as profitable as you think.

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08-24-2015 , 05:43 PM

#12

betgo

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGspecial

Yeh, you should play the hand, but it is marginal, because you will make mistakes on later streets from not having any idea what villain has.

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08-25-2015 , 03:08 PM

#13

ceegee

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 6,551

well how many playable hands are there with a 9 in that situation. What does the majority of that range want to do?

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