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Old 02-25-2017, 01:38 AM   #1
Kanagroo
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Live game, swindle?

Hello

I was playing in a live Stud high game tonight at the casino and saw something that surprised me, I'd like to have the opinion of other players.

I'm not in the hand. It's 7th street and 3 players, let's call them A, B and C.

A bets 1 BB
B calls, with his board showing a pair
C raises by putting 2 BB in the pot, with 3 spades on his board, it looks like he has a flush

A folds
B throws an additional 2 BB in the pot, so he has put 3 BB so far
C thinks for 20s (obviously wondering if B has a full house), looks like he is going to fold and then decides to call, he puts another BB in the pot.

At that moment, B takes back 1BB from his bets and says to the dealer "Wait a minute, I didn't raise. Even if I put 2BB there, I said 'call' but you didn't hear me"

Of course everybody thought he raised, and another player told him: "It looks like you raised though"

But B was very persistent and even aggressively gesturing towards the dealer, saying again and again "I only said call"

In the end, the dealer got tired (as well as the other player) and B could remove 1BB from the pot.

I'm wondering, if we suppose he said 'call' (which nobody heard but ok), does he have the right to put more money in the pot only to take it back later?
Meaning, the dealer should have returned some his bet right away?

The other way round happens more frequently, especially in spread games, if someone bets 10$ in a 2-10$ spread game without saying 'raise', it is assumed that he is calling. Sometimes he will say "I said raise" and the dealer might or not accept it.

Here B put more money in the pot and then claimed he said 'call' ..

Would that be a legal but borderline way to try to make someone fold?

Thanks for your feedback
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Old 02-25-2017, 01:50 AM   #2
LUCIUS VARENUS
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Re: Live game, swindle?

Hi

Dealer here. Been dealer for 7 years.

Ultimately it comes down to dealer discretion. If the dealer does not hear call, he or she is then is obliged to read the action in the form of the chips.

Ideally a floorperson is called as soon as the discrepancy arises.

The floorperson will then ask the dealer if they heard the player verbally express call.

If the answer is no, the action will then be what the chips say.

In this case, it will be a raise and then action will continue until the betting round is competed.

The floorperson should then advise the player that the players are always responsible for protecting their own action.

This case is one in which the player did not fulfill that responsibility and unfortunately for him he must live with it.

If the dealer shrugs and let's the player do what they want, in certain cases that is OK, but in this particular case it is poor judgement to let this slide.

The action must be raise.

I would advise you to bring this to the attention of the cardroom manager who will then hopefully rectify the dealer's future performance.

Hope this helps.

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Old 02-25-2017, 01:52 AM   #3
LUCIUS VARENUS
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Re: Live game, swindle?

By bringing this to the attention of the cardroom manager your future experience and that of other players will be improved. It is well worth your time to do so.

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Old 02-25-2017, 07:01 AM   #4
monikrazy
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Re: Live game, swindle?

So he didn't mean to raise but instantly realized it when other player called?

Also he waits a long time for players to do anything when the action was over if he called?

Dont think the floor should let this one slide, far better to have him pay 1bb by accident than let this kind of angle attempt be repeated
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Old 02-25-2017, 11:52 AM   #5
Kanagroo
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Re: Live game, swindle?

Thanks for your feedback, very informative.
Next time I play I'll watch out for this player and will call the floor if he does it again !

Answers to Monikrazy questions: Yes and yes
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Old 02-25-2017, 06:07 PM   #6
leavesofliberty
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Re: Live game, swindle?

Likely angleshoot, imho.
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Old 02-26-2017, 05:23 AM   #7
chillrob
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Re: Live game, swindle?

If no one at the table heard him say call, he has definitely raised, and should not be getting his money back.
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Old 02-26-2017, 09:11 AM   #8
electrical
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Re: Live game, swindle?

If a player acted behind the angle shooter based on him putting two bets in the pot, he cannot claim he didn't put two bets in the pot. If the dealer didn't hear him say "call," he didn't call as far as the game is concerned, he raised.
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Old 02-26-2017, 11:42 PM   #9
AKQJ10
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Re: Live game, swindle?

Wouldn't this thread be better placed in Live Casino Poker (former B&M) since it has little to do with playing decisions of stud hands?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Also he waits a long time for players to do anything when the action was over if he called?
This is the damning detail. Without this delay, it's a raise but plausibly an honest mistake by B.

The 20 second delay demonstrates beyond all reasonable doubt that B wanted to freeroll a bluff. He only spoke up after it was clear that C wasn't mucking. B's behavior must not be tolerated.

Dealer should call the floor. Floor should ask for explanation. Upon receiving the explanation, Floor should grab one or more empty racks, give them to B, and inform B that cheating is not welcome in this room. Floor should invite B to come back in 24 hours once his ban is over. Floor should also inform B that a second instance of this behavior will result in a one-year ban and a third instance will get B 86'd.

It's very bad that the dealer to let himself be browbeaten into allowing cheating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanagroo View Post
Next time I play I'll watch out for this player and will call the floor if he does it again !
Please follow Lucius' suggestion and, even now, mention it to that room's staff. Most angle shooters are known to the staff, but still, they need to know that he's doing this and really need to know the dealer is allowing it.

C could have folded his hand here so it's not just a 1BB issue. It's cheating to try to win a pot without risk.
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Old 02-27-2017, 10:24 PM   #10
kidcolin
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Re: Live game, swindle?

clear angleshoot. No one should let that slide, not the dealer, floor, and certainly not the other players. If he really said call, other players should have heard it. That they didn't means dude is clearly angling.

Quote:
The other way round happens more frequently, especially in spread games, if someone bets 10$ in a 2-10$ spread game without saying 'raise', it is assumed that he is calling. Sometimes he will say "I said raise" and the dealer might or not accept it
Rule should be explicit for the floor. At foxwoods, in certain games where the games are played with varying chip denominations, certain cases must be verbally announced. For example, in the 5/10 stud game with a $2 bring in, the game is played with whites ($1) and reds ($5). Playing a red on 3rd with no verbal declaration, it is assumed to be a call. Playing 5 whites is a raise.

Similarly in the 20/40 stud game, greens are usually present, and if you play a green on 3rd without saying raise, it is assumed you are calling the bring-in for $5.
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