Some of these smaller games can be real gems. I played in a 5-10 OE game with a full kill and overs that lasted a couple of years. I *almost* made 4 bbs/hr from it. It would only make a couple of times a week, however.

I also like that it has a kill because I also see a lot of otherwise experienced omaha players who have trouble with them. They've never studied the effects of having 3 blinds on some hands.

Maybe you'll make it out to Phoenix someday and play the game. I've met quite a few 2p2 posters and I've only not cared for one, would be nice to meet you.

A kill is great for almost any game. Overs are a different story, and I'm generally not into them.

Generally speaking the loosest players want more action, so they take an over button. The other players to take them are the better players who want to exploit the first type. Nits never take an over button.

Loose player opens a pot with some piece of cheese, good player raises him, nits fold, loose player calls and sees a flop for 3sb with 7.5 sb in the pot.

Normally he will peel the flop with a huge part of his opening range, either a correct peel, a peel that may justify itself with implied odds or in a worst case is losing only a tiny fraction of a bet. With overs, the good player can shorten his odds from 8.5:1 to say 5:1, and shorten his turn odds from 4:1 to 3:1.

Basically, Overs allow good players to punish loose players and make them go broke faster. One thing that's critical to the health of a game is the fish being able to occasionally make a big score. Loose structures and a kill give suckers a break and let them have a hot streak now and again. Overs make that less likely.

I've never played overs. Talking Stick apparently doesn't allow them and Wild Horse Pass, that does (or did) seems to have lost their 8-16 LHE game, from what I've heard.

Amen to this part: Loose structures and a kill give suckers a break and let them have a hot streak now and again. I will almost never be the player w/ a monster stack in a given session bec I just don't play enough hands to get lucky with. Everybody else takes turns. Some guy on Sat had an ENORMOUS stack after scooping one of the monster pots. 3 hours later he was almost down to the felt. One of the nicest players in the game left up 3 racks and I was very glad.

I'm just going to grind the thing and I will know tomorrow if the game lasts long enough on a Tuesday. I'm going to have to get there by 10:30 am or so to make sure I get a seat.

ETA to add: I'm amazed that this game even exists. The 6-12 version killed off the 8-16 08. Now that it's 8-16 it may attract even more players one of whom I've stupidly told to watch Joe Tall's Stud8 vids. And, for the curious, the 20 game used to be played at Ft. McDowell w/ a $3/down time charge. Yes, they will do that for a red chip game but nobody will go there. I'm friendly w/ the guy that somehow managed to get it spread at Talking Stick and told him that I didn't think he could actually pull it off it but he did. I thought it might last a couple of months but it's been two years! OE: 'The game of the future!'

100% agreed about Overs, they are a catalyst to cutting up an action player.

Would love to check out Phoenix. Haven't been there in years. I've been flying on my trips West lately, but the next time I drive, I'll surely stop in and donk off some money.

I don't have extensive experience with overs, but I find their social dynamics interesting. When I've played them, they were demanded by the action players. And they did get demolished by them.

Nits should have avoided them, but didn't. They would see the big pots and see the producers going off, then take an overs button to get the money while it lasted. It *never* worked that way. Greed is a terrible thing. Plus there is a bunch of ad hoc implied collusion when buttonless players punish nits by floating the fish when they sense the fish has a big draw, etc.

Kills, otoh, play into the Action Player's style of play (alliteration or mere repetition, you decide!), and can give them a break. I'm all for them.

Just what I was afraid of, the Tuesday game plays 1/3 as big as Saturday. I had to move back to the LHE. But here's an 08 hand that I found amusing and is illustrative of the level of play:

On a flop of AQ10 5 (5!) players called a single bet. 5!

Turn: 4 Checked through!

River: 9. Some guy bets and gets called in one spot. 73, FTW!

And, I don't care what anybody says, getting called by a Q and a 10 having raised (A-5)A in Stud/8 and losing is a bit aggravating.

SOME people around here (and I'm not naming names) think it's a good idea to play high pairs in Stud8 so today I decided to give it a whirl. That made the difference between winning big and losing a peanut. TYVM!

keep practicing! also, you're going to have a lot of variance if a bunch of people see the river every hand so you don't necessarily have to be aggressive with them until you improve / can maybe knock some out.

I stuck to K's and Q's w/ working side cards. They 'worked' ok.

Here's to playing high pairs, at least at 8-16:

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I DID play my hated 9 door card, though. Me and my 9 had (A-A)9-A-9 on 5th and got called by a Q-J-10 that folded to a 6th street bet and I've been wondering what hand would call 5th and fold 6th.

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As long as we're at it, and I'm willing to listen, you think it's better to schlep until, say, 5th, too see if I improve when it's very multi-way instead of trying to get it 3-way at worst? Bec I'll tell you 'they' don't fold. It's small stakes after all and I think that I'll go back into my shell and let them hang themselves. I can do pretty well just w/ that. IMR, how can I lose when there are 3 Jack doors and 2 of them call a complete on 3rd? Anybody can play a wheel that comes in, but mostly they are truly terrible. And they aren't anything special at 08 either.

yeah, they don't fold. if a bunch of people limp to you and you have KxK, just call and see what happens. you're going to have to fold a lot, so you may as well lose the minimum when you do.

limping behind w/ KxK also disguises, if they're paying attention, if you limp with something like KQJ or a live 3-flush and hope to catch well on 4th and then win a big pot. You're getting great odds at that point

This. Also, post some hands. I know in games like this it is almost impossible to remember everybody's cards with so many playing, but just 3rd and 4th would be cool.

As an aside, I believe that if you can play big pairs well in these games, you can encourage other players to play them badly -- they see you win pots with them, but don't understand the subtleties. A surprising number of players who are good at other games can get married to big pairs and ride them all the way down when they are obviously toast.

You don't need to play pairs religiously, and in lots of cases you can muck them with a clear conscience, but if you have the likely best hand, all else being even, Nines or Tens are just about as good as Kings. Not low cards, can be counterfeited by an Ace, but almost equivalently difficult for undercards to outrun if they don't pick up additional equity early in the hand. Also, in most cases you can either comfortably drive the action or fold based on early street boards.

Best news about playing pairs in stud8, once somebody sees you show down a pair of Nines and scoop, they never think you could possibly fold Queens, so you can save some bets and still earn a few more winning bluffs versus low boards.

Very nice advice, I knew you'd come along. What do you think of the above about limping? I think that I may have given a false impression. If there are a bunch of limpers in front of me I'll call w/ any live pair.

Limping last in or whatever is fine. Up front you should usually raise if you're going to play so you kick out crap like (AK)4, (22)3 or whatever that has some equity and can develop a board you have to give up against. Sometimes it's correct to put in three or more bets if you have a bead on somebody who might want to take a card at any price but will give up later. There's no single approach that always works. Just remember to keep pairs in your range at appropriate times and be aware where you are. A lot of the conventional wisdom in stud8 is adopted from any-any Hilo, where high hands are pure trash, and has just been repeated without a second thought.

Thanks for taking the time, I appreciate it!

As a lonely and bored Brit in upstate NY, I just noticed Turning Stone Resort is not far from here.

I can finish work around lunchtime tomorrow, is it worth the trip over there for a few hours of cash?

check bravo and see what games are running

bravo is a poker app btw

tyvm Larry

Rant warning, read it if you want:

20-40 Stud/8 hand. Due to previous action the pot was huge on 6th w/ me holding (A-6)3-4-5-7 facing boards of J-9-J-Q (suits didn't matter) and A-10-2-2. I bet when checked to, didn't get c/r'd and was thinking what great damn shape I was in. I ended up getting nothing.

Point him toward the 20/40 hold'em game next time you see him please.

Never happen. He likes the (I notice I wrote 6-12, should be 8-16) 4-8 08 or 8-16 0E. He won't even play the 20 0E that goes every day.

You linked your stud 8 rant in the small stakes LHE LC thread...I saw a short LC thread, so I read it all at work today.