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Old 02-11-2017, 03:02 PM   #1
PLBlow
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couple stud8 third street questions

hi guys im trying to get a better understanding for how to play some of these spots. can you give me your opinion (call/fold/reraise)? assume all cards are live

1) we bring in (4-5) 6; folds to a jack who completes.

2) same except (4-4) 5
3) same except (A-4) 2
4) same except (2-3) 7

5) a 5 brings in; folds to us with split 9's

6) same except theres a 6 between us and the bring in
7) same except theres a king between us and the bring in
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Old 02-12-2017, 02:13 PM   #2
LUCIUS VARENUS
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

i know it's frustrating to read this answer but a jack completing isn't really enough information

it doesn't mean anything without it being in relation to the other door cards. for example it's significant if he completes into an overcard or two.

however without that info, assuming he has a perfect spot for completing as a steal as much as a value hand in all cases:

1) raise
2) fold
3) raise
4) fold
5) really depends on how close you are to the bring in - are there any cards between you and the bringin, and if so, what are they?
6) fold
7) complete

the raises on 1) and 3) will increase your swings but also balance for the times you have trips or aces down, plus times you are light but think he is also light
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Old 02-12-2017, 07:05 PM   #3
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

On #2 I might fold if the J raised into good looking doors but if he's last to act I am raising. The rest I more or less agree with, with modifications for known player tendencies or favorable/unfavorable door cards all around.
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Old 02-12-2017, 08:19 PM   #4
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

Never folding 1-4, I would probably just call all of them. Doesn't seem great to mix our range when we want to defend light. Agree that we need more info on the situation though including ante structure
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Old 02-12-2017, 09:04 PM   #5
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

Spazz nr3 on third or fourth street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
On #2 I might fold if the J raised into good looking doors but if he's last to act I am raising. The rest I more or less agree with, with modifications for known player tendencies or favorable/unfavorable door cards all around.
also this.
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Old 02-12-2017, 11:13 PM   #6
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

sorry if it wasnt clear; i meant to say in the first examples that it folds to the jack, and we would now be heads up.

in example 5; again would be heads up just us and the bring in

antes are $5; bring in $5 playing $20-40; 7 handed
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Old 02-13-2017, 12:56 PM   #7
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

If the J is dead last to act then most of the time he has literally nothing. That's completely different than if it goes, say
fold fold J-raise fold fold fold fold you
especially if the folds are the J were good door cards. So I wouldn't fold any of 1-4 if he was literally last to act before you.
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Old 02-13-2017, 03:30 PM   #8
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

so should we be playing any razz hand to a steal like in #4? I dont see what the merits are in playing a hand like (23) 7 or 8 in this spot
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Old 02-13-2017, 04:07 PM   #9
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

You should run some equity calcs imo. I wrote that before I saw you say it's a 1/4 ante structure and full table. Folding 237 to a steal raise is lighting money on fire. I would defend so much junkier than that. Like A6Q
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Old 02-13-2017, 09:44 PM   #10
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

Dead cards matter a lot with split 9s (as does the 3rd card)

Agree 1-4 are trivial defends, would frequently complete with them depending on upcards, a42 and 456 are easily worth a raise
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:07 AM   #11
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by PLBlow View Post
so should we be playing any razz hand to a steal like in #4? I dont see what the merits are in playing a hand like (23) 7 or 8 in this spot
It is very hard to give definitive answers in stud because so much depends on board cards first, and player tendencies second. In his spot, I would raise nearly 100% of the time unless I found that the person in your spot was defending light and then I'd re-evaluate.

Against **J you're a favorite
ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
**J47.20% 169,922375,5895232,520198
23752.80% 203,549224,35952290,457198

Remember that if he raises every time, most of the time he literally has J high, which is not a huge favorite. Stud, esp stud8, does not feature dominating preflop matchups.
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Old 02-14-2017, 05:04 AM   #12
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

yah I will run some calcs for sure this is pretty eye opening, thanks guys
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Old 02-14-2017, 11:35 PM   #13
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks View Post
On #2 I might fold if the J raised into good looking doors but if he's last to act I am raising. The rest I more or less agree with, with modifications for known player tendencies or favorable/unfavorable door cards all around.
So if we have 44-5 and a last to act Jack door raises your raising in that spot? Especially if there are no other jacks dead, this seems bad to me in stud8. Really need to assume the player is raising 100% of hands in that spot to make it worth wile.
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:15 AM   #14
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

445 is a very solid hand - it even has reasonable low potential. I am definitely raising against a J in last position. Against **J we have 60% equity.

Against an *actual pair of jacks* we have 45% equity.
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Old 02-16-2017, 10:19 PM   #15
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Re: couple stud8 third street questions

re-raise 1-3.

mixing range hu is overrated bc most people can't get away from their hands anyway.

I prefer just calling stronger range vs earlier completions

call 4

complete all 5-7
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