I'm new to Razz and there's a fairly common spot that comes up that I'm not too sure about. Say it's a 4 handed game and the action goes like this:

Bring-in - K
J - Folds
4 - Completes
Me : 36-T

This particular opponent with the 4 is completing here 100% (correctly?), and plays pretty reasonably. If I do call I am not expecting the K to get involved. The numbers say I am a 52/48 favourite, but is this a spot where I just have to throw away my hand because of playability?

Thanks!

This is an easy call, potentially a raise depending on how your opponent plays. And unless it comes down perfect for him on 4th and terrible for you, you should probably see 5th st.

Wow, ok. I guess the more insteresting spot is if I was acting before the 4. I see a lot of people limping in that spot, which seems reasonable.

No, I think limping with a T door in that spot is fairly awful. I would probably raise or fold. If you limp or if you raise, the contents of your hand are a fairly known quantity. That's actually kind of a key to playing a hand like this - if your opponents are not terrible, they will know what you have. Your knowledge of that combined with your knowledge of how they play should make it possible for you to still benefit. It's easy to get into a levelling war, though.

So anyway, if you limp, they're still gonna know you have 2 good low cards but now they get a good price to come along cheap, and/or raise you and leave you not knowing what kind of hand they have. It might still be possible that someone with one brick under will raise your T, I would do it fairly often myself, but it makes you a less attractive target - 2sb to catch good vs a fraction of one.

Another interesting thing to consider is that unless he catches a worse brick than your T, or pairs, you'll have position on him.

Thanks for the well written posts. I don't see any reason to disagree.

Rusty I agree with some of your points but strongly disagree with your conclusion. Yes of course whether you limp or complete he will know you have two good ones and one bad one. So? He will also 2 bet you with the right range and I would argue he may actually over play against a limp. It's not like we are gonna get fooled into thinking he has to have a monster whatever he does. Clearly it's a posturing spot where he can attack aggressively and we just have to play poker based on how it runs out.

Some of this depends on the ante structure. I mean 4 handed low to average ante we should just fold the ten up if the low acts behind us. And debatably just let him steal if he acts before us. In a higher ante structure or say 8 handed when everyone folds to the last couple guys I would limp the bad card up or call the completion if he opens.

When would you raise? I'm not disagreeing. Just trying to understand the game better. The only time I play Razz is in HORSE tournaments. Razz has done me in a few times over the past few years, so I'm trying to study up before the WSOP. I realize 4 handed is much different than tournament play. However, understanding to logic would still be useful.

I also agree with donkey. OP, I think you're on the right track...

In either position, folding is bad and raising is bad. Limp if you're acting first, call if he raises in front.

Regardless of whether you call or complete/raise, your hand is pretty face up. He has perfect visibility and you're going to have to fold away a lot of equity on later streets. Building a big pot against that is asking for trouble.

Limping does invite the king to get involved too, but you're okay with this, as it actually improves your pot odds and is at least neutral for you.

Basically, this hand can get tricky to play, has too much equity to fold, but is too flawed and easily taken advantage of to get aggressive with. OP, you're right on that your 52/48 equity edge against ??4 is misleading.

This sort of thing was discussed here a few years ago. Some people were saying to complete to fold out very weak hands with the low showing. Also, villain gives information if he just calls the complete. Your hand is face up anyway, so try to get information from the low card.

I don't want to argue with Donkey and Grapes, and I was suggesting limping way back, and people were giving me the above argument to raise.