Boycott PokerStars Stud/Stud8 games until they clean them up - Page 3 - Stud Poker

HanndyManny · 01-30-2011, 12:14 PM

I am starting to wonder if this is why the stud8 cash games seems softer on FTP. I have always felt I play stud8 fairly well and done well in the $3.30 stud8 tournies on stars having 2 1st place finishes 2 5ths and a couple other final tables out of playing it around 20 times. Yet the 25-50c to 1-2 cash games dont treat me too well.

I like the idea of using the HomeGames to lock out the changles but how do get the live ones to find the games?

Prodigy · 01-30-2011, 02:09 PM

The real question is, what happened to all the 2-4, 3-6, 5-10 games? There's like 3 games total in those limits, and then like 10+ games of 1-2. I will never get supernova elite w/o the games at these stakes

Am i the only sicko for liking the non-soft games of stars? Jamming is an important element of split games, and punishing 2nd best hands.

HanndyManny · 01-30-2011, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prodigy

The real question is, what happened to all the 2-4, 3-6, 5-10 games? There's like 3 games total in those limits, and then like 10+ games of 1-2. I will never get supernova elite w/o the games at these stakes

Am i the only sicko for liking the non-soft games of stars? Jamming is an important element of split games, and punishing 2nd best hands.

I sure hope you mean supernova....I cant imagine how many hands of stud8 you would need to earn 1 million vpps.

Davdob · 01-30-2011, 03:38 PM

[QUOTE=Joe Tall;24468811][QUOTE=SOLE REEDER;24468505]

Quote:

Originally Posted by the shape

Is this evidence? Both of the opponents are Fuzhou players. (this is facetious question as I believe it is):

Poker Stars $30/$60 Limit Stud $5 Ante - 4 players - View hand 714182
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (0.667 SB)
Seat 2: xx xx 5

____Seat 2 raises____Seat 2 calls
Seat 3: xx xx T

____Seat 3 folds
Hero: A

A

4

___Hero brings in for $10___Hero 3-bets___Hero calls
Seat 7: xx xx 6

____Seat 7 completes____Seat 7 caps!

4th Street: (12.667 SB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 5

T

____Seat 2 bets____Seat 2 calls
Hero: A

A

4

T

___Hero raises___Hero calls
Seat 7: xx xx 6

2

____Seat 7 3-bets

5th Street: (10.833 BB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 5

T

7

____Seat 2 3-bets
Hero: A

A

4

T

Q

___Hero bets___Hero folds
Seat 7: xx xx 6

2

Q

____Seat 7 raises____Seat 7 calls

6th Street: (17.833 BB) (2 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 5

T

7

6

____Seat 2 bets
Seat 7: xx xx 6

2

Q

8

____Seat 7 checks____Seat 7 calls

7th Street: (19.833 BB) (2 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 5

T

7

6

xx____Seat 2 checks
Seat 7: xx xx 6

2

Q

8

xx____Seat 7 checks

Final Pot: 19.833 BB
Seat 2 shows 9

9

5

T

7

6

J

(a pair of Nines)
Seat 7 shows J

J

6

2

Q

8

7

(a pair of Jacks)
Seat 7 wins 19.8 BB
(Rake: $2.00)

But to Stars, its looks fine. They are just jamming hidden hands against an unknown range that also happens to have a strong hidden hand. Because what could be wrong when they are putting 66% of the chips in with only 51% equity?

ProPokerTools Stud Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

dead cards: T

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
AdAc4hTdQc	48.93%	293,562	2
9c9h5hTs7s	22.17%	133,046	0
JdJh6h2cQs	28.90%	173,390	2

Well the problem lies is trying to prove that they know, collectively, that they are creating over 14% fold equity. In reality, which is what the OP is experiencing, they are creating this fold equity and semi-soft play out the remainder of the hand.

Actually this example is extreme, as often the hero does not have this much cold equity so its easy to create such fold equity.

This strategy can be countered, just simply never fold in this situation, however, this will make these sessions massively variant.

This is one of the more persuausive hand histories I have seen. Put together a batrch of these, and Stars would have to act.

My previous feeling on these guys was just to jam alot with strong hands no matter what they did. I still think that is a fairly good strat, but it does get expensive.

As2s3s4s5s · 01-31-2011, 07:43 PM

I feel like I have to weigh in as a PokerStars stud 8 regular. Before I say anything, I want to make sure it's clear that I believe what they do is wrong and they should be banned from the games.

However, I do not mind playing against them. I table select and only play at full tables where I know at least 5 of the players in the game are fish / regulars / other straight players. In a full game it is humorously easy to nut peddle and punish these guys as long as you know who they are, understand how they play, and adjust appropriately. In a short handed game (which I avoid like the plague), however, they have a huge unfair edge.

Lottery Larry · 01-31-2011, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by As2s3s4s5s

.

However, I do not mind playing against them. I table select and only play at full tables where I know at least 5 of the players in the game are fish / regulars / other straight players. In a full game it is humorously easy to nut peddle and punish these guys as long as you know who they are, understand how they play, and adjust appropriately. In a short handed game (which I avoid like the plague), however, they have a huge unfair edge.

The biggest problem is not what potential effects they have on you. It's their effects on the other players, most importantly the casual players, that is the biggest threat.... imo.

JiveDef · 02-01-2011, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by As2s3s4s5s

I feel like I have to weigh in as a PokerStars stud 8 regular. Before I say anything, I want to make sure it's clear that I believe what they do is wrong and they should be banned from the games.

However, I do not mind playing against them. I table select and only play at full tables where I know at least 5 of the players in the game are fish / regulars / other straight players. In a full game it is humorously easy to nut peddle and punish these guys as long as you know who they are, understand how they play, and adjust appropriately. In a short handed game (which I avoid like the plague), however, they have a huge unfair edge.

This

I don't mind playing them and some of them (Rostofly etc) are so bad that I want them in the games. Full ring they have a lot of leaks.

Also the Odessa (Odecca) are not related to the fuzhous, a couple friends know 1matrix's real name and stuff.

**Joe Tall** · 02-01-2011, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the shape

Joe Tall,

I'm glad you have decided to take part here.

Thanks and sorry for the late reply, I just returned from London where I was a guest speaker at a iGaming conference. Its been a conflict of not having enough time for me, obviously. I am a dad, COO of DeucesCracked, poker player and poker coach, and that's the short list.

Quote:

My target audience are those I don't have to prove this to. My target audience are those I don't have to prove this to. I'm not about to go looking through the million hands I've played nor am I about to try to put myself in a position to be "worked" again so that I have something to show a bunch of non-stud/stud8 players. If they don't play these variants, and they don't care about the security of those who do, and/or they habitualy "poo poo" any discussion of foul play, I don't have time to convert them.

This is unfortunate, you are not including Poker Stars. At this point, we as a community have to prove this to support.

Quote:

Joe, what do you think about hundreds of Chinese accounts that are invovled in this and yet NONE of them play Tournaments or Stud SNGs? Out of all of them, NOT ONE veers from the path and dabbles in tours or sngs? Over about 10 years?

I do not yet looked into this data/list. If you have, could you report all stud players you wish to investigate, thanks.

Herbert761 · 02-03-2011, 05:37 PM

Interesting thread, Shape. It's good to know there are others out there concerned re the integrity of the stud games.

I play a fair amount of stud8, but have always shied away from studhi bc the tables have traditionally been infected with chinese. I questioned the integrity of the games and refused to be cheated out of money.

I continue to play stud8, but play no higher than 3/6 at the moment. I have played many chinese opponents hu and they have a number of flaws in their games. I've never really had the impression I was being cheated by them when playing hu - at least at these lower limits.

Some observations I have made re them, is they 1. definitely share a database about players... I've noticed that once one Chinese stops playing a particular opponent who they determine is a winning player, all other Chinese players cease playing that particular opponent immediately.

2. They drive up the variance in the ring games with marginal hands. Perhaps this is done to gain an unfair advantage - in any case, advantage or not, it is particularly frustrating and leads to greater variance/volatility in sessions. I can only imagine how frustrated higher limit players must get at this phenomenon. The games play much bigger than they should and tilt those around them, causing their opponents to also play much more aggressive than usual.

I'll keep an eye open for unusual hands and make sure to save them. I guess that's the best we can really do at this point. I'll continue to play the Chinese at stud8, though, until I see there is a definite unfair advantage.

tiger415 · 02-03-2011, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzard1881

I honestly dont think its a problem anymore at the higher stakes(I havent noticed it at least) but they should still refund money its a joke. I definitely got scammed in the ceegee range of 50-70k. Kind of a joke that they just swept it under the rug

Quote:

Originally Posted by As2s3s4s5s

I feel like I have to weigh in as a PokerStars stud 8 regular. Before I say anything, I want to make sure it's clear that I believe what they do is wrong and they should be banned from the games.

However, I do not mind playing against them. I table select and only play at full tables where I know at least 5 of the players in the game are fish / regulars / other straight players. In a full game it is humorously easy to nut peddle and punish these guys as long as you know who they are, understand how they play, and adjust appropriately. In a short handed game (which I avoid like the plague), however, they have a huge unfair edge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiveDef

This

I don't mind playing them and some of them (Rostofly etc) are so bad that I want them in the games. Full ring they have a lot of leaks.

Also the Odessa (Odecca) are not related to the fuzhous, a couple friends know 1matrix's real name and stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herbert761

Interesting thread, Shape. It's good to know there are others out there concerned re the integrity of the stud games.

I play a fair amount of stud8, but have always shied away from studhi bc the tables have traditionally been infected with chinese. I questioned the integrity of the games and refused to be cheated out of money.

I continue to play stud8, but play no higher than 3/6 at the moment. I have played many chinese opponents hu and they have a number of flaws in their games. I've never really had the impression I was being cheated by them when playing hu - at least at these lower limits.

Some observations I have made re them, is they 1. definitely share a database about players... I've noticed that once one Chinese stops playing a particular opponent who they determine is a winning player, all other Chinese players cease playing that particular opponent immediately.

2. They drive up the variance in the ring games with marginal hands. Perhaps this is done to gain an unfair advantage - in any case, advantage or not, it is particularly frustrating and leads to greater variance/volatility in sessions. I can only imagine how frustrated higher limit players must get at this phenomenon. The games play much bigger than they should and tilt those around them, causing their opponents to also play much more aggressive than usual.

I'll keep an eye open for unusual hands and make sure to save them. I guess that's the best we can really do at this point. I'll continue to play the Chinese at stud8, though, until I see there is a definite unfair advantage.

Interesting post. I completely agree with the posts above.

Although I don't mind playing them in stud 8 as of right now (I've never played them in stud high so I have no opinion in that game), I do feel that there is something fishy going on with them. One thing I notice about their play is when they first migrated to stud 8, they were horrible. As time progressed, all the fuzhous became progressively better. Although I still believe that they are -ev, they are waaay better than they were when they first stepped into the game. I actually love their laggy style, since it is IMO a -ev play by them. Maybe their style is able to exploit non-regs in the game? I do not really know... However I do not feel comfortable with their obvious multiple/duplicate accounts and the fact that they play a huge spread (from 1/2 upto 100/200) on the same day. Whatever their goal is, I can't figure it out, because I honestly can't see them profiting the way they play. They are IMO losing players in a reg-filled game. Maybe they are getting away with some unethical business or some kind of laundering or maybe they are cheating somehow under the radar. Perhaps they are a group of rich chinese businessmen that enjoy donating money at every stake?

frappeboy · 02-04-2011, 12:11 AM

This has been a problem for years. I've started a few threads about it that got nowhere.

I used to be one of the biggest winners in the stud games on Partypoker back in the day. I quit playing stud on PokerStars a few years back as I was simply unable to beat the games. I broke even over 250k hands at 1-2 thru 3-6 despite seeing many mistakes made by my opponents, the Changles in particular.

I've sent many hands to Stars support that were very suspicious, and they never did anything. The Changles also seem to just suck out more often than they should. Probably due to the fact that they know more hole cards so know when their hands are really live or your hand is really dead.

Anyways the sentiment seems to be that most players are simply too lazy to investigate this, and Stars doesn't really care. The best move for most players is just never play stud again on Stars.

If someone wants to undergo the task of doing an investigation, I have 250k or so hands I'd be willing to send.

listening · 02-04-2011, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frappeboy

Anyways the sentiment seems to be that most players are simply too lazy to investigate this, and Stars doesn't really care. The best move for most players is just never play stud again on Stars.

If someone wants to undergo the task of doing an investigation, I have 250k or so hands I'd be willing to send.

lol

the shape · 02-08-2011, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tall

Thanks and sorry for the late reply, I just returned from London where I was a guest speaker at a iGaming conference. Its been a conflict of not having enough time for me, obviously. I am a dad, COO of DeucesCracked, poker player and poker coach, and that's the short list.

This is unfortunate, you are not including Poker Stars. At this point, we as a community have to prove this to support.

I do not yet looked into this data/list. If you have, could you report all stud players you wish to investigate, thanks.

This is pretty much impossible now that stars has abandoned the CITY FIELD in favor of a COUNTRY FIELD and I have to wonder if that change is not a response to this tread. I guess that somehow "proves" we aren't playing multiple Chinese boiler room players if we see UNITED STATES next to half of their names.

As2s3s4s5s · 02-08-2011, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the shape

This is pretty much impossible now that stars has abandoned the CITY FIELD in favor of a COUNTRY FIELD and I have to wonder if that change is not a response to this tread. I guess that somehow "proves" we aren't playing multiple Chinese boiler room players if we see UNITED STATES next to half of their names.

I don't think there is any connection whatsoever but when I read the update description I immediately thought of this thread and considered the new policy's implications with respect to cheating. I really don't like it...

Herbert761 · 02-08-2011, 10:04 AM

As soon as I saw the players playing by country as opposed to city, I thought of this thread. It'd be nice to think that 2+2ers somehow have the ability to change unfair practices on stars.

It's now apparent that the Chinese can play only one stud table at any given time. Makes one wonder exactly what they were doing and what Stars has learned to implement something so drastic. They are clearly losing a ton of $ in rake.

Perhaps we can expect some money from stars to compensate for playing with the cheating Chinese in the near future???