Some think the PokerStars Stud and Stud H/L games are clean now because they have implemented the policy of only allowing one player from China at each table, but the new policy is a joke, the Chinese have been using fake cities for years. And logging in from other countries to "gold farm" and shot everyone's variance through the roof playing with their massive shared pool of money and shared database of hand histories.

PS Security told me years ago that these players logged in from the same PC's and would login to some account from the East Coast of USA one day and China the next. PS was more forthcoming on the matter then, more recently they get very annoyed at mention of the Chinese cheats, but if they had listened years ago then the giant DoN SNG fiasco might never have occured.

They did refund loot for the DoN situation, but that's only because it was a ton of holdem players that got cheated. They have since implemented a rule where only one player from China can sit (yeah right) at the Stud/Stud H/L tables. Would they really do this if they hadn't found something fishy in the stud games? The "gold farmers" have been abusing the Stud games for about 10 years now. Where is all the money I should be refunded for having played with these cheats for a decade? Surely they wouldn't risk alienating so many Chinese players if they hadn't found something, and if they found something, I want my loot.

They use alot more cities, now in addition to the old ones. So if you are foolisgh enough to continue playing you should at least be aware of how many of them are at your table. Favorite cities include:

New York, Brooklyn, Corona, Fuzhou, Fujian, White Plains, Flushing, Honolulu, Las Vegas, Keiv, Odessa, Moscow, Madrid, any city with non-english characters is probable, and any city that includes the abnormal cardinal directions such as (West New York Town).

Not long ago, and before the DoN scandel, Jeff in security who used to be really cool all but acused me of being a Xenophobe and stated that he thought I would not be happy until no Chinese were allowed to play on the site. I took offense, let him know that my circle of friends dominated by Asian people and quit talking to him since he clearly was frustrated with the situation. Since then, the DoN scandel has occured. I guess if you had listned to me, Jeff, PS could have saved itself over $2,000,000.

I quit playing Stud high about 7 years ago because of these cheats and swithed to Stud H/L but now they have all but ruined that game. Your variance in $2/$4 there will be $5/$10 variance at least as they jam pots from 3rd on with their ringleader's money.

Some of you might have read along lost post from a former support member who talked about how security/support was divided on the matter and worked against each other when it came to the "Changle Gang".

You might also have read TaoTaoTao's thread or Lee Jones "Don't fear the gold farmers" article.

I'm just spewing here because I dont' really have time for this anymore. But you should find those articles. Lee Jones is a great guy, but he doesn't get it on this.

PS won't do anything about it. To channel Kanye West "PokerStars doesn't care about Stud people." When it came to Holdem they refunded around $2M but Stud players can apparently just suck on it.

FTP got rid of these cheats already. It didn't make the news, but they are gone. Perhaps it's because of FTP's hypersensitivity about $ transfers. As mentioned in the post from the former PS support member, 1 account funded hundreds of other accounts at PokerStars when it came to the chinese gold farmers.

At that very least you know these hundreds of players share hand histories which is against the terms of service and use that knowledge against all other players not on the team.

For the one's that sit and wait for headup action, I can join ONE Of them and then all the others will sit out so that I cannot join them. Obviously, they share info and communcation instantly. Once one of them won't play you, none of them will.

I'm rambling and don't intend to respond to the MicroBob's of 2+2 who want to chime in on every thread, especially in regard to cheating. If you haven't played Stud on PS for the last 10 years, you have little or nothing to say on the matter.

If you do play Stud/Stud8 on PS, I call on you to let PS know you wont' be playing these variants again until they truly clean up the games.

Oh, and let me be the first to say "OP is racist!"

Thanks.

The Shape

Post is full of win. Voted 5 stars, would read again, lolcheateraments etc.

So true. I've been scammed out of at least 70k at 100/200 stud hi by the fuzhous playing 3 handed with me.

One question. How does anyone know for sure the games are clean at FTP? Why can't these guys hide just the way they do on Stars? Well, actually two questions.

I quit playing stars 2 or so years ago because of them.

I think a better question is how does one lose 350 BB playing three handed against two colluders before they figure out that they're being cheated? I don't mean to be insensitive but that's a lot to lose. When did you figure out what was up ceegee? Have you talked about that anywhere on this forum or can we get the cliffs of what happened?

so is this a problem in, say, the 30/60 8/b game? i was thinking about redepositing on stars, but...

I honestly dont think its a problem anymore at the higher stakes(I havent noticed it at least) but they should still refund money its a joke. I definitely got scammed in the ceegee range of 50-70k. Kind of a joke that they just swept it under the rug

how exactly did you get scammed?

At least they aren't dealing off the bottom of the deck

And thus I stopped being a regular stud player at PS about three years ago, and as of four months ago have stopped playing stud altogether on PS.

Although I greatly enjoyed sessions on PS when I got some decent cards while sitting to the left of these LAG-tards, eventually the variance just became more than I wanted to tolerate. I simply got tired of the repeating cycles of grinding 3-5 small (approx. 7-10 BBs) winning sessions in a row, and then getting whip-sawed in a session by these gangsters for a large (40-60 BBs) loss.

I don't think we can know definitively or prove with any empirical evidence that stud games are clean at FTP. But we can rely on anecdotal evidence based on our own experiences. And mine, over the last eight years on PS and the last six on FTP, lead me to conclude that at least the stud games on FTP are cleaner than on PS.

I never play more chineses together and taking notes about strange suckouts etc will for sure help identify players that are not from "Fuzhou" that are cheating.

Btw ... If you find something strange write support@pokerstars.com and security@pokerstars.com to check the right address and let correct the address from players that put standards "Fuzhou", "no chat", "US", etc.

I had "Dunno (no chat)" and they automatically modified that. When I see something strange and that I dont like I ever write the support to ask for those checks ...

So, do you have some recent HHs? Have you identified actual player names? If there's going to be a thread, perhaps it should be used to make the case.

Esp if folks are claiming very large losses, there should be indentifiable patterns amongst them.

[QUOTE=listening;24456825] If there's going to be a thread, perhaps it should be used to make the case. [QUOTE]

Listening,

Not trying to be a jerk at all here, but this is where you are wrong. I started this thread with the intention of NOT making a case. This thread is for those who have already experienced it (perhaps over a decade) and a call for them to act. Specifically, to let PS know they are not playing Stud on that site any longer and to let them know the reason why. And to, perhaps, let PS Know that we feel we should be refunded money in the same way NLHE players are refunded when they are cheated.

Other threads speak more fully on what is going on. I have additional information myself but will not go into it in this thread. I plan to spend minimal time on this.

Lastly, we don't need to make a case. As I said before, PS has admitted that these players share PC's and accounts and login sometimes from the US and other times from China (it's pretty obvious they have PC's sitting in other countries now, too). Since PS has admitted to this, it's clear that these players are breaking multi-accounting rules. Other behaviors indicate they share a central database of hand hisotries among the members of their "gold farms' , "boiler rooms", "sweatshops", or whatever anyone wants to call them. We are them certain they are breaking at least to provisions in the Terms of Service and that PS is allowing it.

If security or support could be relied upon when it comes to this specific matter, we woudn't be at this stage with this thread.

Regardless of what your personal intentions are, unless some evidence is presented somewhere, basically, all you have here is gossip. So, what, everyone is just supposed to follow you and boycott Stars' Stud games?

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying all there is now is you saying something. Not compelling.

I'm not going to explain the purprose of the thread again. Obviously, you are not the target audience.

I don't have the time or the desire to convince people that haven't experienced it. The thread is not for you, or the MicroBobs of 2+2.

There are other threads regarding these players where you can get your fill of that.

All I care to do now is have the players, who are already in the know, take action. And I almost don't care about that.

I have played on Stars stud games for years.

I have played against these players, referred.

I heavily considered last fall leading a group to gather Hand Histories so we could take action. (CeeGee and I talked about it over and over how to objectively go about this task, but a large task it is.) Its quite obvious to me that the only way to get action out of PokerStars is to take this next step which is to build hand histories, names, locations into a database and send it to Stars.

Listening is correct and afaik she only plays on Stars so she is your target audience.

why don't you guys try to get adanthar involved again, then?

[QUOTE=the shape;24460229][QUOTE=listening;24456825] If there's going to be a thread, perhaps it should be used to make the case. Just when I was afraid this thread was going to go nowhere, OP came back and saved it with this gem.

But in all seriousness folks, WTF? All I read on this forum is complaining about these "cheats" but is there any evidence? Like, as in, one shred? Even a mod here is weighing in on the matter but I've never seen any. I'm still somewhat of a noob so maybe this is all before my time. I'll take a link to a thread with real evidence if no one wants to post (repost?) here.

[QUOTE=SOLE REEDER;24468505][QUOTE=the shape;24460229] Is this evidence? Both of the opponents are Fuzhou players. (this is facetious question as I believe it is):

Poker Stars $30/$60 Limit Stud $5 Ante - 4 players - View hand 714182
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (0.667 SB)
Seat 2: xx xx 5 ____Seat 2 raises____Seat 2 calls
Seat 3: xx xx T ____Seat 3 folds
Hero: A A 4 ___Hero brings in for $10___Hero 3-bets___Hero calls
Seat 7: xx xx 6 ____Seat 7 completes____Seat 7 caps!

4th Street: (12.667 SB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 5 T ____Seat 2 bets____Seat 2 calls
Hero: A A 4 T ___Hero raises___Hero calls
Seat 7: xx xx 6 2 ____Seat 7 3-bets

5th Street: (10.833 BB) (3 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 5 T 7 ____Seat 2 3-bets
Hero: A A 4 T Q ___Hero bets___Hero folds
Seat 7: xx xx 6 2 Q ____Seat 7 raises____Seat 7 calls

6th Street: (17.833 BB) (2 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 5 T 7 6 ____Seat 2 bets
Seat 7: xx xx 6 2 Q 8 ____Seat 7 checks____Seat 7 calls

7th Street: (19.833 BB) (2 players)
Seat 2: xx xx 5 T 7 6 xx____Seat 2 checks
Seat 7: xx xx 6 2 Q 8 xx____Seat 7 checks

Final Pot: 19.833 BB
Seat 2 shows 9 9 5 T 7 6 J (a pair of Nines)
Seat 7 shows J J 6 2 Q 8 7 (a pair of Jacks)
Seat 7 wins 19.8 BB
(Rake: $2.00)

But to Stars, its looks fine. They are just jamming hidden hands against an unknown range that also happens to have a strong hidden hand. Because what could be wrong when they are putting 66% of the chips in with only 51% equity?

ProPokerTools Stud Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

dead cards: T

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
AdAc4hTdQc	48.93%	293,562	2
9c9h5hTs7s	22.17%	133,046	0
JdJh6h2cQs	28.90%	173,390	2

Well the problem lies is trying to prove that they know, collectively, that they are creating over 14% fold equity. In reality, which is what the OP is experiencing, they are creating this fold equity and semi-soft play out the remainder of the hand.

Actually this example is extreme, as often the hero does not have this much cold equity so its easy to create such fold equity.

This strategy can be countered, just simply never fold in this situation, however, this will make these sessions massively variant.

Its not just that but they were sharing cards so even if you had something to call with a lot of the time they capped because they had your outs or they knew they had lots of outs for themselves. It was really an easy way to manipulate your opponent, but since they all played so quirky that I thought eventually id crush them, but i was too tilted and naive at the time to think of what was happening. Now when i get a chance to play them by themselves, its fairly easy(puxianpusha, Supermanqin, etc). No way they were playing straight up, and if I could get hands from specific sessions id show that.

Will you go back and fix the quote in the post, it looks like I made SOLE's comments: The example is good, but I believe you'd need several from the same session, or with the same players in multiple sessions with multiple players. This endeavor needs the cooperation of several Stud regs.

Joe Tall,

I'm glad you have decided to take part here.

My target audience are those I don't have to prove this to. I'm not about to go looking through the million hands I've played nor am I about to try to put myself in a position to be "worked" again so that I have something to show a bunch of non-stud/stud8 players. If they don't play these variants, and they don't care about the security of those who do, and/or they habitualy "poo poo" any discussion of foul play, I don't have time to convert them.

I'm not one of the bitter, losing players that believes poker is rigged. It's not rigged (UB/AP super user accounts aside) and that's why I have been able to do it for a living since 2003. But are the Stud/Stud8 games on PS riddled with hundreds of cheats originating from China and claiming to be from that country along with many others? Yes.

I'm really just exhausted by the whole thing. I've been through it so many times with support and other players. So, hopefully everyone can realize that my approach is de-feuled by this exhaustion. What I can muster is dropping some tidbits here and there I guess. I'm glad people are getting involved in the thread, and hope more people at this stage will come forward with hand histories as you have done, even if it means the thread gets semi-hijacked into a case proving thread.

Joe, what do you think about hundreds of Chinese accounts that are invovled in this and yet NONE of them play Tournaments or Stud SNGs? Out of all of them, NOT ONE veers from the path and dabbles in tours or sngs? Over about 10 years?