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Old 04-19-2017, 06:09 PM   #1
lstream
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Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

I was an observer in this hand - Commerce 20/40 game. Seat 5 plays a ton of stud, and is for the most part solid, but he plays crazy hours. He can be prone to overplaying his hands. This hand took place on a Saturday. He had been playing non-stop since some time on Thursday. He had converted a real nice stack of $4K plus into maybe $1,000 by then. I am presenting this hand from his perspective.

Seat 3 is a pro, who has been playing for decades. These two guys play against each other all the time. I think Seat 3 is by far the better player. In my time playing against him, I have not seen him do anything stupid or get out of line.

These two ended-up heads up on this hand.

Seat 5: JJJ
Seat 3: xx 4

Seat 1 brings-in. Folds to Seat 3 who completes. Seat 5 raises. Everyone else folds. A raise war ensues. Seat 3 stops raising after six bets go in.

Fourth Street:

Seat 5: JJJ7
Seat 3: xx 48

Seat 5 bets. Seat 3 calls.

Fifth Street

Seat 5: JJJ79
Seat 3: xx 48A

Seat 3 bets. What is Seat 5's play? Aces and Jacks are live.
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Old 04-19-2017, 06:18 PM   #2
LUCIUS VARENUS
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

seat 3 should have 444 or aa4

i've not looked at a ppt sim like this before but i'm guessing jjj isnt far ahead of that range if it even is

i'm guessing as well there's more combos of 444 after this 5th than aa4 but idk if that is a worthwhile consideration

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Old 04-19-2017, 06:20 PM   #3
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

i think if I were seat 5 i would just call and hope to fill, and then pay that man his maney if i don't

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Old 04-19-2017, 08:48 PM   #4
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

Probably flat and raise 6th
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:34 PM   #5
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

I'm putting in a raise somewhere. Either 5th or 6th. 6th sounds good. If I get 3bet and he has trip aces, so be it.
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Old 04-20-2017, 01:45 AM   #6
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Probably flat and raise 6th
I think I prefer raising now? Issue is that we risk accidentally pairing our board and missing the raise completely.
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Old 04-20-2017, 02:22 AM   #7
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

Seat 3 should have exactly AA for HC, and now trip aces. Call down mode. The six bets on 3rd means Seat 3 played this hand poorly, or Seat 5 is a total maniac.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:22 AM   #8
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

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Originally Posted by RolldUpTrips View Post
I think I prefer raising now? Issue is that we risk accidentally pairing our board and missing the raise completely.


Raising 5th looks so strong that I am hesitant, we are likely far ahead and I don't want to kill action if villain is bluffing or way overplaying his hand
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:35 AM   #9
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

Given your descriptions in OP, S5 should reraise now. He's at the very top of his range and S3 probably isn't giving him that much credit. If S3 reraises, time to slow down.

Cool hand btw. I love you guys!
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Old 04-20-2017, 01:24 PM   #10
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

Call down unless he fills. Seat 3s range on third is rolled 4s, large pairs (specifically AA) and maybe some small quantity of 456s or 4AKs, which should be heavily discounted when it is six bets on third. Given he doesn't raise 4th, but donks 5th, ranges can be narrowed to the stronger part of that range. Raiding and reopening the betting here would be a disaster. If seat 5 wants to raise unimproved, he should wait until 7th when he opponent won't know if he filled or not.
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:40 PM   #11
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

Seat 5 called.

Sixth street:

Seat 5: JJJ793
Seat 3: xx 48A8

Seat 3 bets. What is seat 5's play now?
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:17 PM   #12
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

Call and fold river if you don't fill, or prob crying call at that point.
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:56 PM   #13
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lstream View Post
Seat 5 called.

Sixth street:

Seat 5: JJJ793
Seat 3: xx 48A8

Seat 3 bets. What is seat 5's play now?


Raise
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Old 04-21-2017, 04:37 PM   #14
RolldUpTrips
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lstream View Post
Seat 5 called.

Sixth street:

Seat 5: JJJ793
Seat 3: xx 48A8

Seat 3 bets. What is seat 5's play now?
Can't beat 444 anymore...I guess now I would just call and call river UI or raise if I fill. Betting if checked to on 7, obviously.
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Old 04-21-2017, 04:37 PM   #15
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Raise
What are you putting villain on?
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Old 04-22-2017, 05:53 AM   #16
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

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What are you putting villain on?

2 pair most of the time
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Old 04-22-2017, 04:49 PM   #17
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS View Post
seat 3 should have 444 or aa4

i've not looked at a ppt sim like this before but i'm guessing jjj isnt far ahead of that range if it even is

i'm guessing as well there's more combos of 444 after this 5th than aa4 but idk if that is a worthwhile consideration

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Do you really need a simulator to tell you how we are doing against a range of 444 and AAA? Hint: there are the same number of combos of each.

This whole thread is amazing, really shows how fastplaying always makes sense, super solid guy jams it up and people still want to raise him.
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Old 04-22-2017, 04:51 PM   #18
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichGangi View Post
Given your descriptions in OP, S5 should reraise now. He's at the very top of his range and S3 probably isn't giving him that much credit. If S3 reraises, time to slow down.

Cool hand btw. I love you guys!


Where we are in our range only matters for how often we need to call down. If the guys board was AAAA and you had rolled up would you keep raising because you are at the top of your range?
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Old 04-22-2017, 05:13 PM   #19
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
Do you really need a simulator to tell you how we are doing against a range of 444 and AAA? Hint: there are the same number of combos of each.

This whole thread is amazing, really shows how fastplaying always makes sense, super solid guy jams it up and people still want to raise him.
yeah brain fart ldo

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Old 04-23-2017, 08:28 AM   #20
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

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Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Raise
You're crazy.
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Old 04-23-2017, 10:55 AM   #21
Phat Mack
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

OP, if you don't have an estimate, cool, but how often do you see six bets on 3rd in this game?

How often have you seen seat 3 make it five bets on 3rd?

The only reason I ask is that if seat three has been playing live a long time, he may have a wider 3rd-street-jam range, but I'm pretty sure seat five's options are call or fold, and I'm really not sure about fold.
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:52 AM   #22
lstream
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

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Originally Posted by Phat Mack View Post
OP, if you don't have an estimate, cool, but how often do you see six bets on 3rd in this game?

How often have you seen seat 3 make it five bets on 3rd?

The only reason I ask is that if seat three has been playing live a long time, he may have a wider 3rd-street-jam range, but I'm pretty sure seat five's options are call or fold, and I'm really not sure about fold.
I almost never see six bets on third in this game. There is one maniac that does it once in a while, sometimes with nothing. He was not in this session.

I have never seen seat 3 do this, in maybe 30 hours where I have been at the table with him.
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Old 04-23-2017, 01:20 PM   #23
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

Would seat 3 ever do this with a A24hhh type hand?
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Old 04-23-2017, 02:27 PM   #24
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lstream View Post
I almost never see six bets on third in this game. There is one maniac that does it once in a while, sometimes with nothing. He was not in this session.

I have never seen seat 3 do this, in maybe 30 hours where I have been at the table with him.
Cool. I haven't played the C 20/40 since the 90s. These 3rd street jams were more popular in the past.

I was assuming that since Seat 5 was playing 48 hrs he may have been cranked, and that seat 3 would have known this and could have jammed light -- either to isolate, to show down cheaply, or to draw cheaply.

I probably shouldn't comment on these live-game threads since it's almost impossible to figure them out without being there, and for me, hard to figure even if I'm there.
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:33 PM   #25
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Re: Another 20/40 stud hi hand (rolled jacks encore)

This is like, the basics of poker, but when someone raises it's for a reason and you gain new information each bet, so at a certain point you have to say, "gee guess he has JJJ and AA4 is gonna need to catch up". Or something to that effect. It's a huge leak to not take your opponents raises seriously against at all sober opponents.

I mean, how many bets does it take?
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