No, investment funds aren't returned in markup.

because in this example, the horse has 50% equity. he obviously gets 100% profits on his equity.

stakeback is only a protection for the backers to try to return the full amount of their stake, and also reduces variance. these functions have value across a package of tournaments but not a single one. I don't know, but some sunday tournament markup grinders have been accused of doing so.

END SIDETRACK MORE TR.

sorrrrryyyyyyyyyyyy:

I'm struggling to remember anything that was noteworthy from day 2 of the HORSEament, except for it's always nice to make a day 2 and get moved into the Amazon room. I probably only like being in the Amazon room more b/c it means you're on day 2 or day 3, but it is a bit quieter w/out the cash and satty crowds. Though depending on which country is at a final table, you may have a lot of loud outbursts...

The big noteworthy hand was in H at 2500/5000 when I had I dunno 30k or something when UTG opened, UTG+2 3-bet, I 4-bet w/ TT, and it was capped behind me, THEN A BLIND CALLS FIVE COLD, UTG folds (later says it was KQ), 3-bet calls, I call. Flop is AAx, check/check/bet/fold/call, I look at 25 SB in the pot and peel w/ my set and backdoor flush draw! Turn is blank and I fold, river is Q and 5-bet gets c/red by AQ, he had AK.

It got written up as: "Clemencon Crushes Competition With Queen on River" on the updates, though they said, "Clemencon silently tapped the table and Opponent # 1 fired his last 5,000 barrel. Now it was time for Clemencon to spring his trap and he check-raised to 10,000, prompting his opponent to shake his head in disgust, saying "Ace-queen is fu****ing good" as he made the call."

except he said "queens are ****ing good" instead. typical lamestream media...

taking a step back, prior to arriving at day 2, i had to sleep somewhere after day 1. since the Rio wanted $150/night on Fri/Sat, that somewhere was ceegee's house until sunday. conveniently located ~10 minutes from the Rio, ceegee is staying in a poker house, or what used to be a poker house prior to black friday. it was pretty nice, actually, with ~7 bedrooms or whatever, a pool, and a really comfortable couch in the living room.

however, that 10-minute drive is like a $20 cab ride, which is a bitch if you have to do that twice a day. renting a car is so ++EV in vegas; I ended up getting a 10- or 11-day rental for like $198...

I was surprisingly ambivalent about actually having a house to go back to in the sense of a larger physical space. Last year I stayed at the Rio the whole time, and it was really nice to be back in a quiet room ~5 minutes after I was done playing poker. What was great about the house, though, was human contact outside of the poker room. If you are staying at the Rio, you're probably by yourself, and it was great to be able to hangout w/ ceegee for two weeks. playing a bunch of tournaments in a row can get tiring, and obv. everyone at the rio is distracted by having to get back in a tournament or wanting to play cash games, etc.

sorry for the short update, I spent too much time discussing backing, so I will try to do two tomorrow as I actually know what I want to say next again, specifically, bitching about the 50/100 E game.

thinly veiled brag for being old enough to rent a car

I dream about this game.

yes, well, Steve and I ate a few meals with each other and we always have a lot to talk about, including the social / profitable reasons to play live poker.

I have always been perfectly happy to play online poker in the comfort of my own place. I certainly play more stud/mixed tables than most, and can effectively 6-12 table PLO, so that keeps me fairly occupied. Until very recently, if you wanted to play live poker in DC, you had to go to Atlantic City, which I guess sucks. Accordingly, I have not gotten many opportunities to play live poker. Some of you may remember my discussion of my home game in my well (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=102); I've always thought that live poker should be fun, a nice contrast to "grinding" or whatever online. I love talking to a bunch of people and having a great time at the table. Sometimes, in Stud games, it might even be +EV to be accidentally distracting people from remembering upcards and stuff.

The 50/100 8/b game runs fairly constantly during the WSOP, and it breaks when it's over. I guess the people in the game have tried to run it at the Wynn or wherever else, but they can't keep it going after June. The game ranges from great to pretty good, depending on how many 2p2 people are sitting in it. The only problem with the game is that all the regs or whatever put me on life tilt. It's all a bunch of 40-60 year olds, most of whom know each other and make all these stupid comments the whole time. You also have David Levi, who's such an annoying bastard. None of these factors make for a particularly quick game, either. So the last two years, I've really hated playing in it, even though it's quite profitable. I have never worn headphones at a poker table in my life, but I had to bring a pair just to be able to stay at the table. I think I've had one nice conversation in that game in 3 years not with a 2p2er or Greg Raymer.

So on one of the nights I played the game, I lost my $2k buyin, and with Mustafabet on my left and I think ceegee in the game, too, I decided to find something that was a little more fun, and sat down at a 1/2/5 PLO table w/ $500. On the first hand, 2 or 3 people get it a/i pre with random hands, and on the next hand, one of those guys opens the pot, and another one of them repots it. I look down at AJT8ss and decide to cold 4 bet for value/tilt, opener calls a/i, 3bet calls a/i, and board runs out TT55A; opener mucks and 3bet shows KK5A. Later in that game, 3 people decide to pot it pre blind to $500 b/c that's what they all had, and with ~$1700 on the table at that point, I tanked but folded pre. I was SB, and the BB who was also having fun asked if we get our blinds back, and then volunteered that that was the "nit tax" for not flipping, lol. I looked at my cards and would have made the nut straight for +$1500, ugh...

Meanwhile, there was this guy who was getting really drunk, who turned out to be from Kansas. He was getting a massage and falling asleep, but also talked about how he has to go to the library to check his email every day, and how he just bought his wife a shotgun, and how he was looking at getting some other guns for his daughters. He played pretty well, actually.

So instead of sitting in silence at the stupid 50/1 game, I had a blast, and made like $900 or something playing PLO. I don't know what my winrate would be in the 50/1 game, but I also don't know that I'm not going to get a better or somewhat equivalent win rate playing 5/5/15 PLO.

People complain about the NLHE donks in sunglasses and hoodies, and the nits in the stud games, but I've never sat down in a PLO game where I didn't enjoy myself & most everyone at the table didn't seem to be trying to have fun. I mean, the 5/5/(20) PLO game at Penn's casino in Charles Town, WV had 6-7 people to a flop in most pots and played 300-400+ BB deep. How juicy does that sound? I can't justify sitting in a game where I'm going to hate playing when opportunities like that are available. Am I sacrificing some EV to have fun? Sometimes, but not always, and perhaps not.

The good times of PLO continued to the $1,500 PLOament, which was the second tournament I played & will continue with tomorrow.

something I forgot about from the HORSEament, was one of the best parts of the the series, actually:

Often people think they're funnier / more interesting than they happen to be at the time, but do you know the feeling when you tell someone a joke or funny story, and THEY think it's funner than YOU did?

I like ordering pineapple juice in casinos since, most importantly, I don't drink, but also, because I'm a juice snob. I've found that most casinos have pineapple juice, and it tastes way better than whatever crapass orange drink they try to pass off as juice, and also seems way fresher than whatever cranberry juice / sugar / cocktail is on hand. So, during the HORSEament, I had a cup of pineapple juice, which I accidentally spilled all over my side of the table from the 8 seat.

ProfessorBen was sitting a table or two away from me, so I run over to him, and announce to him and most of the people in the general vicinity:

"I just had a really bad misclick."
"Oh?"
"Yeah, I meant to click "don't spill pineapple juice all over the table", but, instead, I clicked "spill pineapple juice all over the table".

Ben got a kick out of it, but this other guy next to him, whom I now refer to as "chuckles", laughed his ass off. Just uproariously. Completely exceeding my expectations.

Appropriately inspired, I retold that story several times, and I guess basically everyone loved it. Later, Ben tried to tell me I should change the story to "I meant to click 'fold', but instead clicked 'spill pineapple juice all over the table'. All I had to do was stare at him for a couple seconds until he realized he couldn't have been more wrong.

Unbeknownst to me when I first told it, the structure of the story generates a really good surprise laugh that almost immediatly moves into an anticipation laugh after I go in a completely different direction from what you may have been in the habit of misclicking with with, "I meant to click 'don't spill pineapple juice all over the table'", which continues, because people know what's coming, and they're waiting for it, but just for a couple seconds, then, BAM, there it is, pineapple juice all over the table, which often sustains a laugh that didn't actually stop yet. I was quite proud.

Eric's pineapple misclick was the funniest tweet of the WSOP. In the $1500 E tournament, a porter so completely saturated our table with a cup of coffee that we were moved out of the Yellow section to an unused table in White, and several people had their chips taken away for washing and replaced.

So there's two things I learned: drink misclicks aren't that infrequent, and under some circumstances they will wash tournament chips.

Suggestions for non-alcoholic drinks that can be ordered with confidence: Virgin Mary, ginger ale with bitters, coco-pina (pineapple juice with coconut cream), Shirley Temple (grenadine and soda). I agree that bar orange is generally pretty rank.

I feel shameful for ordering alcoholic beverages for myself and one other at my table. Definitely feel like it gave me the edge not to fall asleep tho!

i feel like they gave me an edge. Robert williamson and I were drinking whiskey/cokes 2nd half of day 2 nonstop

Most shocking news since BF, imo

Enjoying this TR. Moar please.

Yes, please.

why am I just now hearing about this?? Did they take them away and then bring the same ones back, or did they have some extra on hand to replace them before they were washed?


So I witnessed Steve order two Virgin Marys, the first of which came as tomato juice only, and then, for the second one, the waitress said "we don't have tomato juice, we just have Bloody Mary mix, is that okay?" as if that's not what he was trying to order in the first place...

So I spent a lot of 2010 learning how to play PLO, and played a lot of low stakes hands, perhaps more than I should have, but I wanted to be super careful since PLO has a lot of variance and I didn't want to move up too fast thinking I was good and then get crushed because I wasn't actually yet.

I felt good enough to play at least the $1,500 PLOament, which got 1,071 people in it. You started out w/ $1,500 in chips and 2 rebuy chips, which let you get $1,500 more chips each anytime you wanted them. If you hadn't used them by level 4, they were automatically used. The limits started out $25/$25, so I didn't feel the need to rebuy right away. I think I worked my way up to $2k or something, then lost a few pots, and then 3-bet AKJ4 ds or ss in position, leaving just one pot-sized bet on the 542 flop. I shoved, guy flips 3678, so that didn't work out so well. I rebought for both my chips after that, and managed to build a decent stack.

I had about $14k chips at $100/$200, the only guy at the table who has me covered was OTB, I was SB. He opens, I just flat J987ds, which I guess is wrong and I definitely wouldn't do in a cash game, but at the time I didn't want to play a big pot OOP against the only guy at the table who could bust me... the SB then re-pots it for ~70% of his stack, the button 4-bets AAxx, now for ~70% of my stack. I tank/fold b/c I didn't want to gamble it up that much that early, but I'm told I should have called there regardless. Apparently I was deviating too much from cash game strategy; I dunno. Against that hands, it was actually ~chip EV neutral, or maybe I gave up 1-2%, so, even though I should have 3-bet, I don't really mind my fold. obviously I would have flopped two pair, which would have held 3 ways...

Our table breaks, so I get moved to this other table where I have a QT87 type double suited hand, or maybe it had an Ace; I can't remember. I raise OTB and get a couple calls. Flop gives me a weakish combo draw w/ a gutshot and flush draw, I decline to check behind, get c/red by top set, river is a straight card but not mine, though I think i picked up a second gutshot, top set checks, I realize I have no fold equity and check behind, then i river one of my draws, he pots or something, and I call all in. Tables breaks again, and I get moved to a table w/ some guy that people were talking about being on some high stakes poker show.

I'm pretty bad about recognizing online pros. I don't watch poker on TV, so I have no idea what anyone looks like except the most famous ones obv. And I don't follow any of the unlimited bet stuff online anyway so unless I played with them in the 8/10-game, I'm probably not going to know who they are.

I found out later it's Andrew Lichtenberger, who I just found out while searching his name to spell it correctly, is luckychewy. I've vaguely heard of that name but know nothing else about him. He was cool, though. We were talking about playing fun games, and he described this ridiculous game where you could buy an ocean, steal people's cards if you chose a card and it came on the turn/river; I can't really explain it any further. Of course I told him about Swingo, and he was excited. I had brought a bottle of Mt. Dew Code Red to the table, which a couple of people were super excited about, as they should be, b/c code red is amazing. We talked about it for 5-10 minutes at least.

One of the main Mt. Dew guys was sitting in the 5 seat, while I had the 8 seat. He was the only other big chip stack at the table and kept joking about wanting to "dance" or whatever in a big pot. Then we played this ridiculous hand where he raised, I defended my BB; the flop was like A56, I have A, another , I think a King, and obviously a 4th card, maybe even a 6. I think I led the flop, he thinks for a while and calls and is like "GIVE ME A NINE" and then the turn is 9 and the whole table laughs. I check theatrically, he bets small enough where I can call, and then he's like "PAIR THE BOARD" obviously being a dick or something, river is another nine, and he MUCKS HIS HAND IN POSITION BEFORE I CAN DO ANYTHING. Unbelievable.

Our table breaks again again, and I get moved over to one of the corners by the rail, where skoldpadda happened to be able to rail me for like 90 minutes or something b/c he was standing right behind me and could see my cards. That table was another super typical PLO table full of fun people, tons of great conversations, I tell my misclick/pineapple juice story, then someone asks to hear it a second time b/c he thought it was so funny, but then the dealer missed part of it or something, so I got to tell it a 3rd time. One of the guys was also from Arlington, VA, and another guy managed a bond portfolio for an insurance company, so there was a lot to talk about.

Unfortunately, I won 0 hands at showdown in like 4 hours, although only even got one to SD anyway... That hand was w/ the guy on my immediate left, so he ended up w/ a lot of chips and used them fairly well. I got 3-bet twice by him, had to fold both flops; one of which he showed top set (I folded a flush draw), and just got down to like 10BB after I think I was chip leader at one point around the dinner break based on what pokernews was tracking... They call 6 hands left, and at the time there were 119 people left and 117 got paid. On the bubble, one of the guys at our table folded like 50 hands in a row or something, it was pretty ridic.

So I pick up double suited AA84 with 8BB with 3 hands to go, open to 3BB, finally, for the first hand in like 10-12 hands, the BB flats. The flop is KT4, giving me the nut flush draw, too, he pots it for 6BB and I stack off for my last 5. He flips ****ing KKxx, and turns quads on me. Since I'm #119, now, they move to hand-for-hand play, and will now ignore the 6 more hands thing play until they bust #118 and break the bubble. So people will cash on Day 1 of the PLOament thanks to me.

I had such a great table, though, that I stood up, said "congratulations, everyone, I enjoyed playing with you all" and actually meant it. I don't think I've ever actually congratulated anybody after busting before. PLOLOL!

I feel like most of the players in the game are not horrible. I guess I'm good at talking with most people and some of the older guys are really really cool. I also find it fairly fascinating finding out how these guys made their money. I mean to be able to play 50/100 for 30 years you have to be ****ing loaded and it's cool to see how they made their money. Also a lot of them make mistakes so I try to be friendly to all of them because they may pick my game over the other game.

+1 on David Levi I can't stand him. He complains about stupid stuff like you shouldn't have called I would have hit my flush and stuff like that. He has some funny jokes from time to time though.

The other two I can't stand is the two women who play in the game. Karina Jett and Mo. They complain about anything and when they're losing its like no one can have fun. They complain about everything and call the floor. When they're winning they're super chatty and fairly nice. One dude was wasted and sucked out on Mo and she was berating him and telling him not to talk to her which is semi ridic.

As for the win rate in the game I don't think it can be more than 150 an hour in most games. The rake and number of hands you get for it is ridiculous. 8 dollars every half an hour and you get like 15 hands in that time period. So 30 hands an hour. I think you can beat the game for 3-5BB/100 but not more than that. There's sometime I was playing and felt like I was +ev but when you look at the rake and stuff you have to beat the game for more than a BB/100 too make it worth while.

Is Mo the Persian one?

I agree. Old dudes with stories are cool to hang around with. Some of them play in the mixed game tournaments, and I was glad I had some hands with them in a cash setting, both for familiarity and to take the conversational edge off.

While some of the old dudes are decent, the number of categorical mistakes made at that game is probably an order of magnitude higher than a tough 10-20 game online. It's actually a fairly tight structure, 10 ante 15 bring 50-100, but it plays crazy loose when certain players are in the lineup, players steal and defend far too liberally, draw for half and make other classic mistakes. A seat in that game when it's good can be one of the better values in the room.

Without personalizing it too much, while some players are less pleasant to spend time with than others (I'm sure there are things about me that bother other players), there's almost nobody whose mere presence opens up a game as well as Levi and I'm always happy when he's in the game.

This is a pretty common trait among female grinders. They are outnumbered and given the behavior of some male grinders, their defensive behavior, while not honorable, is understandable. They feel preyed upon, condescended-to and their talents are dismissed. I try to be on good terms with everybody I play with, so I've seldom been openly berated at a table, but the few times I've been called an *sshole have been by one of them.

When the game is tough that's a little optimistic, but with game selection it's conservative. When the game is tough I just rack up, because when it's good it's explosively good.

Were the two sisters who look like Tugboat Annie in the game? I don't know if they're twins or just close in age, but they would both be in, maybe, their 50s now. They think they invented angle shooting, pulling the most basic kitchen-table and Gardena *****, and have the floor over constantly.

Mo is the brunette women. I might be spelling it wrong. She probably put in the most hours besides me and my friend Drake.

No the only women I played with are Cyndy Violette, Mo, and Karina Jett

Have you ever played against Chip Jett? Karina is better imo.

well there was this other woman named Barbara as well who seemed to be the best of the bunch.

the way they play, they do!

The only time I have ever left a game because I couldn't stand someone's dynamic, was when the two of them were seated together. Mo was the bigger of the problems. Would pay to see her get kicked in the box.