Cliffs: I won the bracelet in the $10k Stud/8 World Championship


So after not having a trip-report-worthy 2010 WSOP (0-4), I'm happy to have something to write about in 2011. Hopefully I'll get some good feedback, like in my 2009 WSOP trip report:

I actually did start a 2010 WSOP trip report, but it was more for me/catharsis than for the forum, so I did not post it.

After constantly F5ing life between December 23rd, when the main event dates were announced, and January 24th, when, you know, the actual schedule was announced, I decided to spend a full two weeks / three weekends in Vegas from the 10-27th, or longer if I was still in the Razzament. Quite a few tourneys right in a row looked good on the schedule, including the 4 I played in in 2010 ($1,500 HORSE, $1,500 / $10k 8/b, and $2,500 razz), plus a $2,500 8-game, $2,500 6-max 10-game, and a $1,500 PLO event as I spent a lot of time learning PLO in 2010 and felt confident enough to play a PLO event. I decided to not put the 8-game into my package since it was the day before the $1,500 8/bament, but added the other two.

In March / first half of April, I felt super good about everything. Thanks to 1/2 razz & 1/2 10-game running a ton on FTP combined with my moving up to the $100 & $200 buy-in PLO games, I was well on my way to having the best year ever, with March 2011 as my most profitable month ever online. Then, a couple different disasters struck.

Obviously I don't have to tell anyone about Black Friday. But there were two things that sucked specifically for me: since March was such a great month, I hadn't cashed out that much yet, and, since I was going to play a lot of the SCOOP events on Stars, I kept extra in my FTP account with the intent to transfer $5k to Stars in May since I don't ever play on Stars and didn't have any money there. Luckily, there were two things that were great specifically for me: I did always cash out regularly from poker>savings>investment accounts when I could and never had any issues doing so, so <1/2 of my poker bankroll was actually online. The second was that, yes, I do have a job (THINLY VEILED BRAG after BF), so I wasn't going to miss rent or anything and obviously have an additional source of funding if it's ever needed.

So, soldiering along, I deposited on Merge (occasional PLE FTW!) and also visited Chicago twice in May, where I stopped by the lovely Hammond Horseshoe. The first time, w/ Skoldpadda on a Saturday, I met Alex Huang / UCBananaboy there & won $600 playing the $1/$2 PLO & $10/$20 HORSE games. The $40/$80 HORSE game runs on Fridays, and when I came back two weeks later on a Friday w/ Osc, I won $5,200 in it!

But how much did you lose sidebar:



Since it was obviously harder to raise money post-BF, I said "**** it, I'm just throwing that $5k in there, too." This will turn out to have been an excellent financial decision!

Staking sidebar:

The 2010 WSOP was the first time I've ever sold pieces to more than one person. It was done on a stakeback basis, 65/35% profit split to the backers. A unique arrangement to be sure, as markup is much more common than profit split. I understand how markup is easy to caculate, in that if your horse has X% ROI in the events, maybe 1/2 X% is an appropriate markup. But, it's basically impossible to have X% ROI pinned down, and one should prefer to be approximately right over exactly wrong. Also, I personally don't like the idea of being paid upfront in the hopes that I'll generate a profitable package. I don't need a freeroll and don't want to have collected extra money upfront in a package that didn't turn out to be profitable. I believe a horse only deserves to get extra money beyond his equity share if the stake is profitable.

Now, lest I appear too altruistic here, an astute backer may realize the standardish 1.25x markup would lead to an 80/20% profit split w/out including stakeback. 65/35% is obviously higher than that, and could be construed as high as 1.5x markup. However, with full makeup, a 50/50% profit split becomes fair, so 65/35% with stakeback splits the difference between that and 80/20% w/out stakeback. In my package w/ multiple $1,500-$2,500 events and one $10k, stakeback is quite valuable if I bust the $10k but cash some of the smaller events, which I guess should happen a fair amount of the time.

So I did the same thing for 2011 & got the same sort of mix as 2010, a few large backers >$1k, some poker people and a few friends who put in ~$500, and then some more people who put in $1-$200 as a sweat/fun. After some help from Huang and the extra $5k from the HORSE game, I was ready to go. My wife wanted to go on a trip together before I was left for Vegas for 17 days, so we went to St. Thomas for 4 nights over Memorial day weekend.

But wait, I said a couple of disasters struck. What was the other one?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Missouri_River_floods

Congratulations!

I know I haven't posted around here too much recently. Sadly not being able to play has dampened my interest for posting. Even though I do find myself checking in more often and NVG and Internet poker looking for news.

That said I am so happy that you won the Stud 8 bracelet. I was a Stox member and always enjoyed your videos. Believe it or not I still have the audio of the razz video where SG calls you one of his students. lol

But most important you'll always been very gracious around here. You always took the time to give thoughtful replies to my posts.

I know you will have a ton of fair weather friends but I always knew how much talent is on this board. Now I'm waiting for electrical to win a razz bracelet.

Congratulations again!

Here's where we need Cliffs. Could somebody pretend they are talking to a 6th grader of middling intelligence and explain to me wtf this means??? Or at least make some jokes about his package?

I prefer your staking plan methodology over markup.

Sweet! Can't wait for the rest!

What questions do you have? We're going out for the day but I'll answer them and get a big Chapter 2 going when I get back this evening...

ldo you post this. <3

Cool. I'll try to break it down when I get home tonight. I'll prolly start with the technical vocabulary: makeup; markup; stakeback.

(I was traumatized in childhood by watching so many stake horses get taken off in pool halls that my eyes glass over whenever I read about staking. I do know what the dump, the double dump and the double double dump are. (We might need a whole different thread for staking. (Has anybody ever come out ahead staking poker players, or is it just sweat-betting and money laundering?)))

Well, everyone who staked me came out ahead!

I had a backer who did pretty damned well for himself a number of years ago.

The nomenclature is lost on me too. I'm pretty sure I'm done with any staking arrangements, so I don't worry about it.

Yeah this even puts me ahead lifetime for backing! All you need is the occaisonal bracelet win and you're golden.

Congrats again! NHNH!

grats sir!

Make sure TR includes an account of the epic DC bowling party.

[x] in before tl;dr

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Missouri_River_floods

So I'll try and make this part as short as possible, but I do want it for background.

So I grew up in SD, right by the Missouri River, on which there are a series of dams. Apparently it did nothing but snow in March and April in Montana and then it rained the entire month of May. It apparently became increasingly obvious that the damns were going to have to release a ****storm of water, placing my town in severe danger of flooding. The Army Corps came in and built two levees, but ~2/3 of the town, including where my parents live, was evacuated after everyone had maybe a week to move their stuff out.

The levee is doing fine, but the water releases aren't supposed to abate for at least 2-3 months, which obviously isn't helpful for moving back in. On an increasingly frantic series of phone calls while we were in St. Thomas, my parents eventually asked if I could not go to Vegas or cut the trip short somehow and help them move back in at some later unknown date. At this point, I mentally assigned myself a 10% chance of being around for the razzament & was trying to figure out how I could adjust the trip.

However, after the initial panic receded and everyone realized the likely extent and uncertainty of the evacuation/return, it was mutually decided that it wasn't really necessary to cut the WSOP trip short in order for me to have a bit more time to provide labor at some unknown date in the future. My parents were actually supposed to have come out to Vegas on the 20th, their 30th anniversary, for a few days to join me, but my mom didn't end up booking the flights or whatever prior to the flood stuff (she was going to surprise my dad). So after they had to evacuate, that trip unfortunately never got booked.

The whole thing is weird b/c it's not like the floods in other places where whole towns get wiped out, in theory, no homes will be lost and regardless, even though 1k people were evacuated, there's a town of ~90k right next door that's completely unaffected and can provide housing, services, etc. The Red Cross set a shelter up and not a single person needed to go to it, so they shut it down after a week... But, noone will be able to go back in probably for >3 months...

Anyway, now that my trip wasn't severely altered, I was excited & had just a few days left before I was leaving, on Friday the 10th. My boss printed out the schedule of events so he could follow me and asked me to highlight the events I was playing in. I start with the HORSEament and, wtf, this thing says it's at noon?????????? I booked a flight getting in at 12:30pm thinking it was a 5pmament. I called the Rio cage to find out exactly what the late reg deal was, and they told me it's only 2 hours instead of the 4 levels + 2 breaks it actually was. I checked a bag, which takes forever to retrieve at LAS because the stupid baggage claim area is six miles from the gates, and didn't get to the Rio until like 1:30, but that was still fine.

This was actually the first 12pmament I'd ever played in, which apparently comes with a sweet 90 minute dinner break. I stupidly grabbed a pizza hut pizza instead of actual food in my rush to get registered and play, so I was running around the room saying hi to ceegee, osc, professorben, and maybe a couple other people with pizza in hand and then went to the cage.

I sent a wire w/ most of the cash I needed for the series, so went to the cage to pick that up and register for some tournaments ahead of time so I wouldn't have to carry around all the cash. It takes a long time to verify the wire & register for 3-4 events, which is fine, but there was this random guy who sketchily came in through the exit door & cut the line. He then awkwardly stood behind me at one of the windows even though you're not supposed to do that since there's one of the snake queues that people are called from for privacy/crowd control. But, it took me like 15-20 minutes to get fully processed, which was hilarious since he tried to cut everyone and probably ended up waiting longer, so **** that guy.

So I sit down at my table at 2, which I think wasn't actually a "late reg flight table," just a table that still didn't have all the seats filled. Yuvee was there, though he didn't/doesn't know who I am. It was a ridiculously soft table, and Yuvee and I just stayed out of each other's way and scooped up a lot of chips. Everyone was super friendly, though. There was this one lady who was super passive, called almost every bet / played every hand, never bet unless she had like a full house, except for one time she randomly made a bluff on one street in an O8 pot, which was really weird. She also asked how much it was to bet/raise/call on pretty much every single hand. THEN, on one E hand, like 4 hours later into the LIMIT TOURNAMENT, she grabbed whatever one small handful of chips she had left with an A up and just shoved them all into the middle. Obviously everyone was like WTF?!?! and the lady didn't even end up having aces... (???????????????)

I started talking about finance/stock stuff w/ some folks at the table, and there was this one kid who sat down at some point that is in his university's investment club, and I asked him a bunch of questions about what he was doing and what he wanted to do. He answered them well, and then gave him a card for when he would look for a job during his senior year. I then busted him a little while later, only to find out the next day that he was actually djforever, lololol! While I was talking about finance stuff, apparently Cheech from the $40/$80 HORSE game, who had just won an O8 bracelet, recognized me because I also was at the Horseshoe, much to my chagrin as that was the first time in my life I was randomly recognized/acknowledged at a poker table. I think in that spot it actually worked to my advantage as obv. I ran good / crushed the game / ran good to win $5k in it in 8 hours, so I think he was a bit afraid of me and then got tilted... I suppose now I'll be recognized a bit more, though...

There were 963 people in, so they were paying 96 spots, I guess. Despite seemingly being the worst player ever, somehow Eli Elezra was chip leader after Day 1. I think this is a good place to stop now again, so I will. Obv. comments are always appreciated.

This is awesome - not that you busted djforever, but just that you had a random exchange with him, a favorable impression, and then it turns out to be someone from the relatively small 2+2 community.

I'm disappointed you didn't mention the part where I got an extra $7500 from you by texting you at the airport right as you landed.

So, the dummy will try to summarize his interpretation questions, for a $5k win on a $1k buy-in (since Phat Mack's a slacker and I can't ride on his coattails):

Markup

You sell half the buy-in for $625, leaving you with half-equity in any prize money.

The $5k cash out breaks down as:

$500 each side for buy-in refund (stakeback) and $2k each side for profit split.

Backers pool $2500, you end up with $2625.

Except that's not the 80/20 profit split you mentioned, so I'm confused. I can't see the backers putting in half at a premium, then only getting 20% of the net.

Stakeback + 35%

Here, I'm lost. How much % are they staking, to get a 35% of the profit?
I didn't get the 'no paid up front, no freeroll' comment- are they not paying their stake before the tourney?- so other than guessing that the backers would get their money back first, then 35% of the profit, I'm lost.


Other than that..... good trip report so far, even in digestible chunks for the tl;dr losers.

^^

ha, you're doing it wrong!

think if they bought the entire $1k tournament at 1.25x markup. They pay $1k and get 80% of proceeds since they paid for 80% of the tournament and the horse gets the remaining 20%. That's where you get the 80/20 split. There's no stakeback/refund; if this was a $200 rebuy or something and a mincash was $800, the horse would get $160 and the stake group would get the remaining $640. If the mincash was $1k, the backer would get $800 and the horse would get $200. The stake wasn't profitable, yet the horse gets paid.

on stakeback, all of the stake money is returned before the horse gets a cut beyond his equity. so in the above example, in an $800 or $1k mincash, the backers who put up $1k would get all $800 or $1k back. If mincash was $1,200, the backers would get the first $1k (stakeback), and then the remaining $200 would be split 65% to the backers and 35% to the horse.

80/20 and 65/35 refer of course to proportionate share. If a $1k stake returns $2k at 65/35 stakeback, and the horse buys in for $500, and the backer buys in for $500, the backer gets $500 + 65% of $500, and the horse gets $500, + 100% of $500 and 35% of the other $500.

when I referred to 'not getting paid upfront', you can see that the horse just gets to pocket $200 in the first example, presumably to buy the other 20% remaining. In theory, he could sell 100% of himself or 95% and just pocket some cash, though obviously backers don't (shouldn't) allow that.

hopefully this is more clear.

one of the other problems w/ markup vs. profit split is incentives. it's the markup guy's incentive to play as many tournaments as possible and maximize his hourly rate; two things that can work against backers, since if a horse is getting paid to play a tournament, why not try to get paid as much as possible?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal-agent_problem


someone like me, working on profit split, only gets paid when I make profits, so my incentive is to maximize profits. that is exactly what the backers want, too.

some of the incentives can be more properly aligned under a markup deal by ensuring your horse has a large piece of himself. stakeback of course also has no value in a single tournament, so markup is pretty much the only way to handle something like that.

^^^

OK, now I get it. I didn't understand your original post. In fact, I didn't even understand Lottery Larry's question, but now I think I follow.

I have friends who are tourney players, and their staking stories are always more horrendous than their bad beat stories, but you seem to have it figured out and seem to be doing well with it, so more power to you.

True dat

Do as little as possible
And that unwillingly
For it is better to incur a slight reprimand
Than to perform an arduous task.

as horses or backers? examples? thank you!


sick Michael Lewis ninja bump

MOAR!

+1 <3 trip reports with happy endings!

Ah- should have been listed 20/80 split, then? That makes sense, obviously. I didn't realize that markup deals would also include a larger cut for one side of the deal. My $5k example was on the wrong premise- return investment funds, then chop up the rest based on investment ratio. Evidently that's not how it's done?

Wait, why does the horse get the first $500 in profit? It's not $500 + 35% of $1k for backers (= $850), $500 + 65% (= $1150) of $1k for horse?

Your way, it's $825 for backers and $1175 for the horse- not significant, but if the prize amount gets larger...



"No value in a single tournament".... to the backers, I'm interpreting. Doesn't stakeback insure that the horse has some motivation to profit? Or would they really play hourly for the +% markup amount?