epic thread already for bringing the return of adanthar and *TT* to the forum!

Is this a level of some sort?

I'm still around, just busy focusing on our PokerTracker business, playing, and general life things instead of posting. As time progressed I find it could be a conflict of professional ethics if I comment on strategy, so I tend to only post when a close personal friend has a question - such as Joe - he is like family to me. Good to see him in the mix again! Most of my communication with poker peers takes place outside 2+2 lately due to biz, but I stay in touch with some of the regs in the Stud forum who tell me when its time to pop in just in case I miss something ;-)

I would hope so, but I certainly see tons of players who must think this philhelmuthchipshove.gif is the insta-play here. This is a tough decision with Joe's hand.

The only reason to do anything but fold is hope that he misread his hand.

Understandable, just sometimes miss the good old days with you, Serge, AndyB, and the occasional electrical fanboy wandering in, and razz games on FTP so soft you could cut them with a spoon (yes, pun intended). On 7th here I'd put a lot of stock in Joe's read on seat 7 and expect him to only ever 3-bet if he has a 6 or better since he has to worry that Hero has a 65. Not sure I could pull the trigger, but I'd at least lift my cards off the table as if to put them in the muck.

I don't understand how it's a conflict of ethics for TT to comment on strategy or Adanthar to comment on Stars/(FTP?) hands. #nitseverywhere

For the record, if this particular player 3-bet, I would have mucked.

Yes i miss the good old days aswell.Seems like most of the worst/best players are gone now since black Friday.Lets hope the politicians get there act together asap and we can get back tio lots of fullriing games on tilt and stars.
#Americandonks

i think the one guy paired his seven and the bettor on 7th wouldnt bet an eight so your 6 is no good. i would just call and expect to lose.

Do you know the player in seat 7 or are you just going off of Joe's read? Remember, it was 2 checks to him on 7th so he may be much more sure an 8 is good. Also, do you think he bets a 7 in that spot?

off joes read. it looks like he might have paired his seven or he would have had the best hand on s6th street. so thats 3 sevens gone.

i dont know if he would bet a seven or not. many wont with draws to beat that and would fold if they miss. and if he has a seven he knows there arent any more left so why bet.
who knows what he may do and the pot is biggish so thats why i would call with anything as the ace may have even paired him earlier on and he is bullying. but i expect to see a wheel. and if he has a six your beat also. so a raise doesnt work for me. and if i did i would fold to his next raise unless he was a player that would do crazy things and this guy may be drunk and that. but i wasnt there so dont know the rest.

That's a real good point, that if the other villain had paired 7s, then it's harder for Seat 7 to get value from one. These kind of card removal effects should definitely be taken into account even if the card that's removed is implied rather than seen on board. I still think it's a good spot for seat 7 to value bet with a 7 or smooth 8 when it's checked to him, but I've certainly run across players who'd take the free showdown.

if the guy makes a seven then there are no more sevens. so then its the same as betting an eight for value. but even if he will do this it is wrong to raise. as if the eight bets for value into a six draw and gets raised he mostly should fold in these spots. so raising him doesnt pay as you only get reraised back. then you must fold or make a bad call.

Ray,

No offense but some of this advice seems kind of out of date compared to today's games, which include in some instances plenty of bluff raising on the river. For example, if the above is true you should be bluff raising all the freakin time because people will be laying down their 8s.

Of course, if you're bluff raising all the time they'll start calling and then you can start value raising places like this.

If you're in a game so nitty that you can't raise a 6 here, then I'm fine with folding, because you'll mint money on so many rivers, taking them down with a raise.

If he actually 3bets, yes you have a tough decision, the philhellmutchipshove is a kind of obvious joke because whenever phil does it on HSP it was almost always a terrible and obvious mistake. Remember how everyone always laughed at him for it (on and off the show?)

i am just talking about the right plays based on hand reading and following the betting.
sure you adjust for what you think the opponent could do or plays he may make at you.
but if they are making major mistakes by making too liberal plays then just playing tight and having the best hand gets them.

I think Rusty's point is spot on, that bet/folding in a pot this large is so very exploitable that hero wouldn't have to bluff raise very often to add significantly to his profit by doing so against such a villain. In this particular hand, the multiway aspect may dramatically affect villain's betting range (i.e. he may bet a 7 or 8 here, when he'd only bet a 6 or a wheel if HU vs. Joe). This subject is actually pretty closely related to the topic of the article I wrote for this month's 2p2 magazine.

nothing is out of date even back then the players made the same plays at you.
but you must know what the basic right play is. then adjust what you do to the opponent.

for instance if both of you just had two low cards on board after the river.
he bets out and you make a straight six. if you raise and he then re-raises the correct play is to fold as a sensible player would not re-raise without being able to beat a straight six. you have to know what the correct play is against what the hands reads as.

then as a player you have to judge the chances of him bluffing you or just re-raising way too lightly, and making the adjustment decision.

otherwise you end up calling all raises and re- raises so you dont get exploited and are just a payoff station.

This whole thing hinges on the notion of what a "sensible" player would do. There is not a correct action in a vacuum in cases like these. This is not to say there is NEVER a correct action but because of the size of the pot related to the size of the bets, it's very easy for the right action to shift.

I'm not saying we necessarily disagree, but, I think the default "correct" or "ABC" play has changed a lot in online play over the years, and online play has generally been quite different than live.

Yeah, back when people could just call themselves "mixed game experts" and people actually believed them.

Not sure who you're referring to, but mostly I'm talking about the time before your join date.

with a sp00n

Yeah, back then.

Yeah back then there were lots of arguments about what was correct and what wasn't, and maybe not everyone was as expert as they claimed. But this forum pushed the discussion and there were a few young players in here that may have learned a thing or two.

Nah, they're all just a bunch of card racks..