Anyone else want to try and convince him, or do I have to do all the heavy lifting?

best relative position.

He has almost as much equity as we do in a 3-way pot (24% vs 25%) and significantly more in a 4-way pot (18% vs. 13%) assuming the others have four to an 8. The more people in the pot, the more likely our 9 ends up being as much of a brick as his Q.

Also, even if we had an 8 instead of a 9, he'd still have as much equity as we do in a 4-way pot. Additionally excluding some smoother draws from the other villains' ranges would give us an advantage over him, but even 6378 is still horribly rough.

That would mean being Seat 3 rather than just having his hand. Though really, to compare hands we'd really need to be in his position as we have no choice but to fold his hand in our position. But then, if SGspecial meant Hero's peel was bad, it's better to have a hand that's obviously a fold rather than a hand you might call and lose money with...

the 5Q is much easier to play than the 79...that's my 'best relative position' point.

Am I using the calc wrong?

(8-8-8)4 43.17%
6739 28.65%
(5-5-5)q 28.18%

I don't see how we can ever be worse off than the 5Q.

Canuck Chuck

Ah - Now it makes more sense.

CC

Agree w the position (as implied iny first reply). We're just talking hand strength here.

Equity being about equal, I'd rather have a strong draw or a hand I can fold on 5th than a hand that just sorta sucks most of the time.

hypothetical: we flat the 9, the 2 8's cap with us in between. is this a good spot for us? obviously not. Plus fifth street is most likely going to be troublesome as well.

If we have the 5Q if there is a bet and any raise we can fold, or if there is a bet and a call like in this instance here we can call behind and play fit or fold on 5th if we do catch another wheel card or a 6 or 7.

So the 5Q is much easier to play and therefore a much better hand to have in this instance. Hand strength doesn't matter if the hand is harder to play and we are guessing a lot on later streets.

excellent discussion by all! I'll give a more detailed response tomorrow, but until then dj is on to something imo. maybe "hand strength" isn't solely dependent on hot/cold pot equity??

Sigh. You're answering a question that wasn't asked. Look back at my earlier posts. I specifically pointed out that between dead outs and position hero's spot is a fold unless players behind are known to be passive and highly unlikely to raise 3rd.

The question under discussion is irrespective of position, which hand would we rather have.

I prefer hero's hand slightly as there are a lot of 5th street scenarios that put us decently ahead. I can still be convinced I'm wrong, it just hasn't happened yet.

Seat 4 is even better off in that respect. If he gets a 7 or better, his hand is guaranteed to be better than ours on 5th even if we make our nine (though he can't be sure with a 7 as our 6 is hidden). He'll almost always know if he can profitably call (and, a lot of the time, raise). He'll never make a large FTOP mistake. If everybody catches good, we could have 50% or 20% equity and face a jam after calling one bet in the latter case.

Not sure I'd call this merely "easier to play" (though that's part of it). It implies the difference is equalized if you know the right strategy, which isn't true.

If position and playability is irrelevant in your question try running the 97 hand against the Q5 hand assuming the Q5 has wheel cards...

You'll probably find out that the 97 is a better hand to have equitywise and answer your own question for you...

But it doesn't really matter which hand is better equitywise which is the point im making. Unless you are perfect at hand reading you are going to be in more difficult 5th 6th and 7th street spots if you take the 97 over the 5Q. Plus your opponents are definitely more likely to call down with the 8 draws against a board of 79x6 than a hand like 5Q62. If you pair an undercard on 6th in both scenario's which board are you more likely to call down against with an 8 draw? Obviously the 97. In the case of the 5Q your hand looks much stronger. It will force you to guess on 7th with the 97 and have a difficult value betting or check/calling decision but with the 5Q62 it will be much easier. Sure in spots where you make your 76 with the 97 in 6 or 7 you are snap value betting everything so the hand becomes easy to play when you improve to the 7.

But does the question, instead of which hand should I take the 97 or the q5 become, 'how well can I hand read on later streets and how difficult do I want to make the game for myself?'

Or am I being ridiculous and clearly we should just take the hand that is better equitywise everytime?

I hope my opponents aim to make the game more difficult for themselves.

excellent post! (DJ made a lot of really good points as well). My original point was that seat 4's call on 4th (if he had three to a wheel) was better that Hero's call given all the info we had about the hand, but it's a fine debate just saying "if the pot is going to be 3-handed to 5th st, which hand is better (more profitable) to have?" I agree it's still seat 4's hand because of all the above reasons, which put together = implied odds. If hero's hand had a big equity edge that might overcome them, but a 1% (or less) difference isn't cutting it. Also, while you can discount position on 4th if you prefer, the Q5 is more likely to have position on future streets than the 97, esp. if the pot gets HU at some point.

Great discussion as always, showing the value of the stud forum. Sg's point about position on future streets is imo the most persuasive one (ceteris paribus) to recommend playing Q5 over 97 and a factor that honesty slipped my mind. Imo this factor (not to discount the "playability" of a smoother draw) tips the decision so consider me convinced.

Re playability:

1) there are a lot of scenarios where the Q5 hand gets put in tough spots too, say seat 5 bricks 5th and 6th and the Q5 makes a smooth 9 or T on the river. Or makes a 7 or 8 and seat 5 shows 3 to a 6 and bets aggressively.

2) Stud games in general and razz in particular are/is all about hand reading so while I agree w not putting oneself in tricky/marginal spots for no good reason, there often are good reasons to get involved, the obvious ones being a) pot odds vs equity and b) the ability to outplay/out-handread/make fewer mistakes than opponents on later streets.

Btw, I'm obv in the process of finetuning my razz play so I appreciate the spirited discussion even if some of us were often talking past each other ITT.

Let's discuss some more marginal spot HHs!